Univ. of Montana Beekeeper Education with Dr. Scott Debnam (327)

327 - Univ. of Montana Beekeeper Education with Dr. Scott Debnam

Bee Bestie 1: Oh, yes. Stop recording. Start. Okay, fine.

Bee Bestie 2: It's recording.

Bee Bestie 1: Oh, hi. We are--

Bee Bestie 2: Start over.

Bee Bestie 1: Okay. Hi, we are Michelle, Tasha, and Sandi, and we are the bee besties here in Southern Oregon. Come find us on Instagram. Welcome to Beekeep--

Bee Bestie 2: No.

Bee Bestie 1: No. I was like, "I need you to say it like--" Okay, wait. Okay, wait. [laughter] [unintelligible 00:00:28] How many takes is it going to take us?

Bee Bestie 2: Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast. I love it.

[music]

Jeff Ott: Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast presented by Betterbee. Your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment. I'm Jeff Ott.

Beck Masterman: I'm Becky Masterman.

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Jeff: Hey, a quick shout out to Betterbee and all of our sponsors, whose support allows us to bring you this podcast each week without resorting to a fee-based subscription. We don't want that, and we know you don't either. Be sure to check out all of our content on the website. There, you can read up on all of our guests, read our blog on the various aspects and observations about beekeeping, search for Download, and listen to over 300 past episodes. Read episodes' transcripts, leave comments and feedback on each episode, and check on podcast specials from our sponsors. You can find it all at www.beekeepingtoday.com. I love that opening, bee besties, and I love the laughter and the friendship that it's so apparent there.

Becky: Can you imagine being in the bee yard with them? I'm 100% sure that they have a blast every time they go and check their bees.

Jeff: Absolutely. Thank you for that opening from Oregon. Becky, when are your packages come in, or actually, are you getting packages this spring? I can't remember.

Becky: It could be this weekend. It could be next weekend. They're coming soon. You know how it goes, right?

Jeff: Yes, it's all weather dependent, and there's been some slowdown this year as well.

Becky: Yes. How about you?

Jeff: It's challenging. I am going to receive only two packages this year. We've talked many times. I'm changing bee yards and have moved my bees, and I just don't think it's fair to my bees that during this period of transition, that I start many more beehives. I like packages in the springtime. For me, it's like seeing the daffodils come up. I enjoy it.

Becky: A rite of passage. If I get a new location, which I do have another yard this year, I like to use a package because I know how long it takes them to draw a comb. It's like a measurement, a package hived on foundation, and how long will it take them to build up their boxes, and how much honey will they make? I use them as a guide, and if I know that it's decent honey, it'll give me a pretty good indication of what their yard is like.

Jeff: That's cool. I hadn't thought of using them as a thermometer or a gauge, as you will, for the quality of the yard. That's neat.

Becky: Yes. It's my level of technology.

Jeff: [laughs] No batteries included.

Becky: None at all.

Jeff: You've worked with many, many beekeepers. How many of those beekeepers are getting their instruction online, versus receiving their instruction from local clubs or local stores who are offering classes?

Becky: That's a good question. I know that the University of Minnesota has always had a very large in-person class, and because of the pandemic, they started offering the online class, which immediately became extremely popular. They're continuing now to offer both. That online class, there are more there attending that class than in person. I think that that number is growing and growing, but the recommendations are that even if you learn online, you also find somebody in person to help you through.

Jeff: A mentor or a more experienced beekeeper is always very valuable to have, no matter how many years you've been in, because there's so many different challenges to beekeeping. Not everyone has seen everything. Today's guest, Becky, is Dr. Scott Debnam of University of Montana. Many people know University of Montana in the beekeeping world for the online beekeeping courses they provide.

Becky: It's such an important way to reach people because not everybody can get to class, right? Their classes are often held at population centers, and it's so critical to reach those beekeepers who are far away from those central points.

Jeff: In many of the courses, it just reinforces what the student is learning in the field or from their mentors. I think it's a good thing, and in full disclosure, I did receive a master's certificate from the University of Montana several years ago. I found it very valuable. It really reinforced areas of bee management that I was unaware of and had no experience of. I'm looking forward to talking to Scott and talking to him about the program they have and how it's changed over the years.

Becky: Can't wait to hear more.

Jeff: We'll hear from Scott right after these messages from our sponsors.

[music]

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[music]

Jeff: Hey, everybody, welcome back. Sitting around this great big Beekeeping Today Podcast table is Dr. Scott Debnam of University of Montana. Scott, welcome to the Beekeeping Today Podcast.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoy the podcast, and I'm excited that you've given me an opportunity to be on the podcast.

Becky: It is so nice to see you again, Scott. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Scott Debnam: My pleasure.

Jeff: We were all sitting around an actual table last October at the Washington State Beekeepers Association meeting, and it was great to meet you in person, Scott.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Yes. I had a great time at that association. I recommend anyone who wants to go to it, it's big enough to have a lot of information, but it's small enough that you get to meet everybody and talk to all the speakers. I really had a good time then. Hopefully, you'll have me back next year.

Jeff: It'd be great. I would enjoy that for sure. For our listeners who don't know you and have not taken a course from you, would you please tell us a little bit about yourself, and you're interest in honeybees.

Dr. Scott Debnam: To say the least. People always say, "You can't talk to Scott for five minutes without becoming a honeybee lecturer." Of course, I became a beekeeping instructor. I do work for University of Montana. We developed a program of online beekeeping courses, but before that, I've been working with honeybees for 25 years as the beekeeper for the research conducted at the University of Montana. I know a whole lot about bees, not just beekeeping. I enjoy the animals more than I should sometimes. I love bees. I'm just going to say it. Once you finally say that out loud, it's just a weight off your shoulders, and you can just go forward with your life.

[laughter]

Jeff: There's no more hiding.

Dr. Scott Debnam: There's no more hiding. Exactly.

Jeff: At the University of Montana, what is your role, and what is your position?

Dr. Scott Debnam: I am currently one of the lead instructors for the UM online master beekeeping program. Also, I'm still the head beekeeper of all the research that we do, and I of course got my PhD through the University of Montana as well.

Jeff: The University of Montana beekeeping course is well known. It's been around for how many years?

Dr. Scott Debnam: 12 years, believe it or not. We started our first course 12 years ago, and that was the apprentice level. That was before online education was that big a deal. We had no idea what we were doing.

Becky: You're ahead of the game.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Fortunately, University of Montana is a liberal arts college. Because of that, we have a media arts degree, so we have access to hundreds of people that know exactly what they are doing in the arena of online education. Believe it or not, they called us in because they wanted-- At first, we taught face-to-face classes. We taught those for three, four years straight. We realized people would drive about 100 miles to get to our program. Then they were like, "Short weekend programs, or five weekends in a row." They would drive about 100 miles. We realized pretty quickly in about three years, we had educated everyone within a 100-mile radius that wanted to take our courses.

The next step, we had no choice but to go online if we wanted to continue offering the program. UM Online called us into their office. I literally thought you cannot teach beekeeping online. I walked in the door, I sat across the table from the man, and I said, "You cannot teach this online. You're going to have to win me over." They did. You can be taught online. They just opened my eyes. They showed me that we can make illustration videos, we can make animation videos. You can also do lecture videos. They taught me the tricks of the trade, so to speak.

For example, you can't do the 50-minute lecture online. Believe it or not, a lot of research shows that the 50-minute lecture, the guy that's in front of the class, talking, talking for 50 minutes, and students taking notes, that's an ineffective way of teaching, but it's still done in universities all across the world. They made it very clear, you need to condense everything down into 5, 10 minute max, little junkets of information. Then they said, "We will illustrate those with animations, and we can illustrate those from things you're actually doing in the field."

I thought, "How can you turn a 50-minute lecture into 10 minutes of information?" Then I realized I was taught to fill that 50 minutes. Really, there's only about 30 minutes of actual good information in a 50-minute lecture, in mine anyway. I just condensed it down to three 10-minute videos. Man, that really does open it up. It makes it easier for the student for two reasons. One, they can pause as much as they want, and they can take notes as much as they want. Two, it allows them to, when I put writing on the screen, they can just pause it, take a screenshot, or transfer it to their notes. I have found that, compared to the same lecture face-to-face, you get way more questions from the three 10-minute video lectures. It's very engaging with the student, which I was very excited about.

Jeff: You brought up a point that often causes people to hesitate in an online course, is because how can you learn something as tactile, not tactical, but as tactile,-

Becky: They're tactical too, Jeff.

Jeff: -like beekeeping, through a video or online? Don't you have to actually be there to look inside the box or actually smell the bees, just smell what's going on?

Dr. Scott Debnam: I agree with that. Absolutely. We do two things in an attempt to mitigate that or to help the student along with that. First thing we do is, and this is going to sound strange coming from a guy who's an instructor for a beekeeping program, I do very little teaching you how to keep bees. The demonstrations show you the basics, but you're going to have to modify those basics. You know what? Even if you learned it, even if you drove-- We do annual field days. We call them field days. You can come out at UM and be in the field with us. We can show you these techniques.

You're going to have to take those techniques back to your setup, back to your equipment, back to your colony, and adjust it to fit not only your situation, your equipment, your setup, and your colony, but you're going to have to adjust it to fit your beekeeping goals and values. Everything about beekeeping really boils down to what is the aim as a beekeeper of keeping this colony. I can't know what your goals and values are, unless, of course, you tell me. I will ask my students all the time, "What's your goal? What's your value system?" That will govern how I answer the question.

We do very little, telling them, "Do this, do this, do this." We're never dogmatic about it, ever. Even when we are telling them what to do, we just say, "This is the general concept of how you do this beekeeping thing. Take these general steps, this general knowledge, and then work it out in your backyard according to your goals and values." I've just told you, I don't really teach you how to keep bees, which is weird. What we do teach very heavily, me and every other instructor in the program, and there's six of us, six highly trained, highly skilled, well experienced instructors in the program, most importantly, we teach you bee biology and colony ecology.

If you know those two things, you can answer your own questions about bees. You can know for yourself, "Should I do this?" No, because the biology says X, Y, Z, or yes, because the biology supports that. More important than anything else, we feel at UM, is to teach you the biology and the ecology and then give you some examples of some actual techniques. Yes, you're right, Mr. Ott, they're going to have to go out there and get hands on for themselves. The second thing that we do is we have time limits. If you take the apprentice course, you have to wait a year before you can take the journeyman course. Once you take the journeyman course, you have to wait a year before you can take the master course. Now, there's no way for us to follow up on this, but we're assuming that you are putting into practice the skills that you learned in the course during those time breaks.

Jeff: Are you asking for videos of them working the bees at all?

Dr. Scott Debnam: We do not. No, sir. It's kind of honor system, exactly. I found that now, if this was a whole bunch of college freshmen, this would never work. Let's face it. [laughter] It's not their money. They're just trying to get the grade, and there's nothing wrong with that, depending on what your degree is, of course. I have found that, for the most part, our average student is 35 years old. Of course, we have older, of course, we have younger. It is their money, and so they are really invested in learning this. They want their bees to live, they want their colonies to produce products, they want to learn these things.

They're thirsty for someone who will give them evidence-based information so that they can answer their own questions and get to their own goals and values. Yes, it's honor system, but beekeepers are good people. That's what I have found. I haven't met a student yet who I thought to myself, "You haven't actually tried that, have you?" It's just the opposite. Every one of them is, they come back in the journeyman level with actual experience. I can tell the difference between the questions that they ask at the apprentice level and the questions they ask at the journeyman level. I feel fairly confident that this honor system is working and working well.

Becky: I have a question that I think I hear our listeners asking, but what are the requirements to get into the first level of instruction? What do they need to bring?

Dr. Scott Debnam: That's the entry level. Anyone can take that. I don't care if you've had bees or haven't had bees. In fact, I love it when someone who says in the forums, "I haven't got any bees yet," or "This is my first year of keeping bees. I wanted to take the course first, so I'll be ready." To me, that is perfect. You get all the information you need, so you start on the solid footing. However, you've already got your bees, or if they died last winter, our course will guide you through mitigating that loss in the future. The apprentice level, anyone can join for any reason. We even have had, when the veterinary directive was handed down from the USDA about Terramycin, about antibiotics in colonies, we just had a slew of veterinarians take the course who don't keep bees.

They just realized, "Hey, beekeepers are coming to us, and we need some information." We had a slew of veterinarians take the course. Never had any intention of keeping bees. They just needed to know about bees. We've had people who were just interested in ecology take the course. Now, that is, of course, the exception, not the rule. Most people who take our courses are either current beekeepers or they're going to get their bees really soon. The apprentice level, anyone can take for any reason. An apprentice course is the prerequisite, say, for everything else.

You got to pass the apprentice course if you want to take anything else. Apprentice course prerequisite for journeyman course to prerequisite for-- We have a natural beekeeping course. If you are already an experienced beekeeper, you can test out of the apprentice course. It costs $60. You can test out. All you have to do is pass the apprentice course final exam with 80% or more. If you can do that, then you test out, and you can jump right into the journeyman level. The $60 you spent on the test is taken out of the fee towards the journeyman. Now, if you don't pass the test, we keep the $60.

Becky: Wait, does it go back to the fee of the apprentice level class, then? [laughs]

Dr. Scott Debnam: Exactly, yes. I've had a lot of students who failed the course. You can get some nasty emails about it, "Why did I get this wrong? You're wrong about that." I'll answer as lovingly as I possibly can while still standing my ground. 9 times out of 10, they will say, "I am glad I took the apprentice course," because this isn't some-- There's nothing wrong with these, so please don't take this as me being critical. This is not a weekend course. This is college-level information. It is five weeks long, and it gives you, like I said, we focus in more on biology and ecology than any other course that I have seen. Even if you're a good beekeeper, and let's say you made 70% on that test-out exam, you are going to learn so much more if you take the apprentice course than you know, than you think.

Jeff: It's a five-week course for the apprentice. How long of a course for the journeyman and master?

Dr. Scott Debnam: Journeyman is eight and a master is nine, I believe, or they may be eight and eight. Both of those courses end with another instructor, so I don't really know. I just keep them all.

Becky: Well,--

[laughter]

Dr. Scott Debnam: I believe they're longer and longer as they go. Of course, you have to pass the journeyman to take the master. There's no testing out of the journeyman course. There's no testing into the master course. You have to take those two. That's because, at the journeyman level, we teach really advanced topics like queen rearing. We teach mycoscopy so you can diagnose Nosema. I don't know any other program that does that. It's really in-depth information at the journeyman level. In fact, we've had several commercial beekeepers take the journeyman level simply because of our diagnostic education that we provide at that level. Now, obviously, these commercial beekeepers easily test out of the apprentice course. Typically, the commercial beekeeper, they won't shoot for the master because the master program requires you to do your own project, and that's very time-consuming. Let's face it. Commercial beekeepers are busy people.

Jeff: Hey, let's take this opportunity to take a quick break, and we'll be right back after these words from our sponsors.

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Becky: Welcome back, everybody. Scott, I wish you had some enthusiasm for the subject. I do have to tell all the listeners about your great bee t-shirt because you are here and ready and in uniform.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Oh, yes.

Becky: It's great. It's a bee in motion, actually. I have a question about your courses, though. It sounds like they're not self-paced. It sounds like you go through with a cohort, and you actually are attending classes at specific dates and times. Is that correct?

Dr. Scott Debnam: I call it pseudo-self-paced. I'll explain that to you because it takes a little thinking. We realize that most of our students are not your traditional college student. Most of them are adults with day jobs. It's pseudo-self-paced, in that we give out a junket of information weekly, so you're required to keep up weekly with the information that is presented to you. Every week, there's a new topic, new video lectures, new video demonstrations, and a new forum. You have to watch everything, read everything, and you have to participate in the forum in that week.

However, when you engage in the material is up to you. That's where the self-paced comes from. Within the week, you can digest the information at your schedule, but you have to keep up with the weekly schedule. It's pseudo-self-paced. There are no actual live classes. Every now and then, if they ask a question in the forum that is really off-topic, but people are really interested in it, I will offer a live session. I just say, "Hey, how about this Thursday at seven o'clock, we all get together, and we can talk about the stinger because y'all are asking a lot of questions about the stinger, and that's not on this week's topic, and we don't even have a lecture about the stinger?"

That is not compulsatory. That is at will. If you want to come, you can. If you don't, you don't. None of the information on these classes, these live events, so to speak, will end up on the exams or anything like that. We do record the live events when I have them, and we post them later in the week. For the most part, there's no class time. You just release videos every week, student can digest that information within the schedule that fits them in that week, but they have to keep up with the weekly material.

Becky: Then what about the forum? That's something they also get to contribute to by a specific time, but at their own schedule or on their own schedule?

Dr. Scott Debnam: That is correct. Forums, that is where this program really shines, to be honest with you, because the forums, when we say forums or blogs, people think, "Oh, those are full of misinformation." I agree, they are full of misinformation, but ours is mediated by the instructor for that week's content. Basically, you are asking the instructor a question, and the instructor gives you an evidence-based answer, either from the science or from their personal experience. Also, it is opened up to the experiences of the other students.

The students can start teaching themselves, and we monitor that "self teaching" to make sure that the information that any student is giving to another student is also valid. I have found that many of our students really enjoy the community that is developed in the forums because a student will ask a question, I will provide an answer with a bunch of science and biology. Another student will then comment on that answer, saying, "Yes, I found this, this, and this in my operation." Another student will then say, "Hey, I found that also, and I tried this." All building off of an original question and an original science-based answer.

These forums, they really are a source of good information. Like I said, I've made three 10-minute videos. That's not real helpful. That is just a starting point that leads you to the forums, and in the forums, you get your questions answered. I can remember 12 years ago, when we first started this thing, I thought, "What are these forums going to do?" They even said, "You got to monitor them every day." I was like, "That sounds like a lot of work." It is a lot of work. Literally, this is not an exaggeration, I can have 75 questions in a 24-hour period.

Becky: Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Scott Debnam: I answer every one of them. It is very time-consuming, and it pissed me off. I'm like, "Hey, I'm too busy. I can't answer 75 questions every day. There's Mr. Ott asking another question I can't answer." That's my dirty little secret. I don't know the answer to all 75 questions, but I can look it up.

Becky: Yes, you know who to call.

Dr. Scott Debnam: The student never knows, right?

Becky: You know how to look it up.

Dr. Scott Debnam: After about the third year, I realized this is great. They have finally found a place where they can get their questions answered. That is priceless. I really respect the forums. I really honor the students' questions in the forums. Literally, I will answer every last one of them. It's a joy now. Not a burden anymore.

Becky: I also have to ask you, you said you were going initially for the 101-mile-plus out as far as distance. I'm guessing you're getting students from across the country.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Oh, are you kidding me? Every state in the union, 25 different countries, 2,000 students. It's all that's required is they speak and understand English. Actually, they don't even need to understand it because our videos are closed captioned. Closed captioned? They can read it in their own language because YouTube hosts the videos. I guess they are still required to be able to read English because I answer in English.

Regardless, we've had students from France, from Africa, which is great because you get a student from Africa, and when they say bees, they just mean bees, but they're asking about African bees, you know what I mean? You have to stop for a second and say, "Wait." They'll see me with no suit on in the demonstration videos. They're like, "How in the world can you do that?" I say, "Where are you at?" He's like, "Zimbabwe." I'm like, "Ah, yours are different." Fortunately, I own Dr. Spivak's book about African bees, so I can answer their questions.

Becky: Excellent.

Dr. Scott Debnam: We hear about Cape bees, right?

Becky: Right. Oh, Cape bees.

Dr. Scott Debnam: I've had students that dealing with Cape bees ask me specific questions.

Becky: Oh.

Dr. Scott Debnam: I'm like, "Wait a minute. I've never had to answer that question before."

Jeff: Oh no, it's wild.

Dr. Scott Debnam: It's fun. We get students from, obviously, when we discuss overwintering, students from Guam. They're like, "What is this? What is winter? Why are you wrapping your hive? Why this? Why that?" I was like, "Where are you at?" They're like, "I'm in Guam." I'm like, "Oh, you're in paradise. You don't have to worry about it." Believe it or not, even if they're in Guam, there is a period of time when the honeybee can't forage. It's called the rainy season. Believe it or not, there are periods of time in Guam when there are fewer flowers in bloom. There is that still annual life cycle. It's just it's muted. We're free to discuss that. Not only that, when there's a student from Guam asking those questions in the forum, and I am answering them, everyone else in the class gets to read those answers and be like, "Oh, I never thought about that." It really is, the forums really are spectacular.

Becky: The students from all over, they've had to even make you a better beekeeper because, just bringing all of that knowledge of, while we're not talking about keeping bees in one state, we're talking about how the bees are reacting to the environment and to the resources and weather and everything. That's when you get to that next level of understanding honeybees.

Dr. Scott Debnam: I could not agree more. Yes, the bees are the best teachers. The students are the next best teacher because of what they're asking, because of what they bring. Have you ever tried to teach the science or the biology of honeybee flight to a helicopter pilot? Come on. This guy knows exactly what I'm talking about, and he adds so much. I believe I have taught honeybee flight to airline pilots, to fighter pilots, to helicopter pilots, and they bring questions that blow my mind. The cool thing is they asked this question to blow my mind. I have to look them up. Remember my dirty secret? I have to look up the answer, but I learn it. You know what I mean?

Becky: Right.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Then I post the answer, and everyone gets to learn it. Then the next pilot asks me, I'm like, "Aha, I know that one." I've had a pilot ask me-- He's a helicopter pilot. The fixed-wing guys, they understand Bernoulli's principle. Obviously, the helicopter pilots do, too, but I found that the helicopter pilots whose wing is not fixed, they got a better understanding of leading edge vortices and those kinds of things. It's just interesting to teach people smarter than me. You know what I mean?

Becky: I'm going to just say for the listener again because Scott and I got a little excited about the Cape bee, and we probably shouldn't go down that rabbit hole right now, but we'll put something in our show notes about the Cape bee, and I hope people check it out because it's just so fascinating, and we could have a whole episode on the Cape bee. Right?

Dr. Scott Debnam: Yes, certainly, because it's a fascinating strategy.

Becky: A fascinating strategy. We're going to keep that a secret right now for some of you, but we'll put it in the show notes, for sure.

Jeff: We've talked about the apprentice course, and we've talked about the journeyman. What can you tell us about the master course? What sets it apart from, say, the apprentice and/or the journeyman?

Dr. Scott Debnam: You made it to the master course, man, master course really blows the lid off beekeeping. It is in-depth. We require a student to run their own experiment. Remember, the masterclass is only nine weeks long, so you only have eight weeks to run this experiment. That's a big challenge. If we're going to require a student to run their own experiments, we have to spend the first two weeks teaching students the scientific method. If you're out there, you're listening, and you're thinking, "I don't want to do that," it's really not that bad.

We don't require them to do any advanced stats or anything like that. Now, if you do want to do advanced stats, just send me an email, and we'll work through it together. We teach them the basic scientific method. We give them detailed examples of how to develop and experiment using honeybees. Then we teach them record-keeping because a big part of research is collecting the data. The second week is record keeping, collect the data, and I show them how to analyze the data. I teach them how to use Excel because it's easy, and we offer a free version through the class.

I teach them how to use Excel to make charts and graphs, which is necessary for the project we were requiring of them. However, once you're a Master Beekeeper and you realize and you learn how to make a chart or a graph, then you can visualize how your colony grows. You can visualize how your mite loads grow. You can visualize how your honey production goes and you can see the peaks and valleys. Then I can guide you. Even though we're teaching you this so that you can do good science, it is something you can also take with you into your beekeeping and have a more intimate understanding of what your bees are doing and, better yet, have the data to prove it.

That's how the master course just starts there. Then we cover topics like mating. We cover topics like internal anatomy and physiology, all of these things that are above and beyond what an average beekeeper would know, even what an advanced beekeeper would know. You become a Master Beekeeper through UM, it's a pretty big deal. It's such a big deal that UM keeps a bank, an online record of who's a Master Beekeeper, so that way you can't just claim to be a UM Master Beekeeper. It is on record, and other people can log in and see if what you say is true.

Of course, if you don't want your name on record, you can opt out of that option. I'm just saying, it's certifiable, literally, and you can prove it to other people because it is a really advanced understanding of honeybee.

We use the words, beekeeping program. We use the apprentice, journeyman, and master, just because that is the vernacular everyone understands. In my mind, I am teaching apiculture, not beekeeping. Beekeeping is teaching someone the techniques of keeping bees and enough of the biology that they understand why they're doing the thing that I told them to do. Apiculture is the other way around, is teaching them, as I've already said, enough about the biology and the ecology that they understand what they should do, and they understand also why they should do the things that I'm recommending.

Because I'm viewing this in my heart and then in my mind, as an apicultural program, the door is flung wide open. I can teach you-- For example, everyone teaches varroa mites, but we teach the circulatory system. Why? Because that is the system that the varroa mite takes advantage of. Before I even say the word varroa mite, I say, "Here is the insect circulatory system. Here is the honeybee circulatory system. Now that you understand that, here is the varroa mite and how she takes advantage of that system." The same is true with tracheal mites. "Here is the tracheal system, here is the honeybee's tracheal system. Here is how the tracheal mite takes advantage of it and why it can have the impact it does have on bees."

That's what I mean by we are teaching apiculture. My goodness, we're teaching the science of beekeeping and the science of bees. Those two things together make an excellent beekeeper. I love teaching, and I love learning things about bees, and I love applying those things to keeping bees.

Jeff: Over the years that you've taught these courses and worked there at UM, how have the beekeepers changed over the years, your students? Do you notice any differences, say, from 12 years ago to now?

Dr. Scott Debnam: They are coming with a better base of understanding. Believe it or not, I don't know how to answer this about giving away, but there's a question on the test-out exam that five years ago, everybody got wrong. Now half the people get it right.

Becky: Oh, interesting.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Yes. I can't give it away because now I'll be giving away the answer. That's just one example of it's getting better. As we learn stuff and podcasts like this are reaching more people, the base understanding of beekeeping at a entry level is higher. I would say that people enter an apprentice level at a higher knowledge base than they did five years ago, without a doubt. Everything from a deeper understanding of varroa mites, that one has really been driven home. People know varroa mites. No one ever gets that wrong on the test-out exam, but it used to be most people got the Nosema part wrong on the test-out exam. Now, more and more people are getting the Nosema part right on the test-out exam. Yes, this is over the last five years, and I'm certain that it's because of Beekeeping Today Podcast. It's because of Humberto's Inside TheHive TV program that is reaching millions of people. These things have millions of views and millions of listens. Listens, is that what they call them?

Jeff: That works.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Not only that, but y'all are getting knowledgeable people because there's knowledgeable people being able to disseminate their information easier now than it was five years ago. People are taking advantage of that without a doubt because they will come in asking me questions, and I'm thinking, "You heard Dr. Pettis talk about that, didn't you?" I won't say it, but I'll think because I watched that same lecture on YouTube. That's my thing. People will ask me to talk, and they say, "What do you charge for a talk?" I always say, "I don't charge anything, long as you pay for my flight and my hotel." I will take an honorarium because I'm not an idiot.

I say that because, as a scientist, the things I learned about bees are useless if I cannot get those out to the people who need to know the things. If you ask me to talk, and you ask me to talk about my research or other people's research that I have researched- that's hard to say- I'm glad to do it because, as a scientist, that is my responsibility. If it doesn't cost me anything out of pocket, I'll be glad to show up and talk to y'all about it. Again, I'm not an idiot, so I will take an honorarium.

Jeff: Let me be clear.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Let me be clear. I won't take money. I don't charge money. All kidding aside, that is what's happening. More and more of us are able to get on these types of programs and disseminate the information that we have learned. The public is soaking it up because, like I said earlier, I have found that beekeeping community, by and large, wants to know this stuff, wants to be better at what they do because of the space that we are responsible for the lives of animals. That's a serious responsibility. People say, and I always say this all the time at my talks, and when I have face-to-face classes, half as a joke, I say, "When you walk up to me and say my colony died, I hear, my friends died. You killed my friends."

I only say that because I'm trying to drive home, we have taken on the responsibility of participating with this animal for its care. I always also say, and this takes a burden off many of my students, "We are not 100% responsible for them surviving the winter, for example. They take the responsibility for that. However, we are responsible for making sure they are healthy, making sure they have plenty of room to put up the honey that they need to survive the winter, make sure they're in a good home to survive the winter in, and not stealing so much of their honey they can't survive the winter."

Those are our responsibilities. After that, now it becomes their turn to shoulder the responsibilities. That is what true animal husbandry is. Let's face it, beekeeping is animal husbandry. Working with an animal towards a shared goal. Even if each party does not fully understand what their shared goals are, the bees don't know I want you to make extra honey so I can sell it, but we're working towards that goal together. That's one of the things I enjoy about beekeeping a lot. That's why I love queen rearing. This is way on a tangent. If you don't want to, you just stop me now. I love queen rearing because when you graph that queen into the sale, you start something that the colony finishes. That's cool to me. It's fun.

Becky: Scott, I'm worried about timing here because if you're running the research colonies, if you're teaching beekeepers, and if you're hauling in all that Montana honey, I'm hoping it's not all in the same season. Please tell me it's different seasons.

Dr. Scott Debnam: I can take one of those things off my plate because I don't harvest honey. I don't even like it. That's not true. I love honey directly from the hive when it's at the temperature and humidity they want it. I love digging my finger in there and taking a bite of it. After that, I don't really like it. Sometimes my family will ask me to extract, so I only have to extract a frame or three to feed everybody that I want to feed. The rest I can just let them overwinter on. Here's another thing I like to do, and this is because I don't sell my honey, so I don't have to worry about it.

When I do extract honey, I extract in the spring rather than the fall. That way, I'm not guessing how much honey I should leave. I got that from a man named Mr. Toth. He was a World War II veteran. He's passed away now. Mr. Toth was a World War II veteran, the greatest generation. He used to walk his dog. The university has an apiary at Fort Missoula, which is a historic site. People walk their dogs on this historic site. He used to walk his dog, and he'd stop and talk to me. We got to talk, me and Mr. Toth. He asked me if I harvest the honey.

I said, "Just enough to give my friends and family." He said, "Can I have some?" I said, "Sure, bring me some jars in August." He said, "August? Why would I bring you jars in August?" I said, "Because that's when I harvest honey." He said, "Why do you harvest your honey in the fall?" I was like, "I don't know. I was taught to." See, check it out. I was taught to harvest honey in the fall by Professor Bromenshenk, my mentor, and another one of the co-founders of their online beekeeping program. He was taught beekeeping by a commercial beekeeper.

As we all know, commercial beekeepers need to harvest honey in the fall for two reasons. One, that's when they sell their honey to their co-ops. Two, they need to reduce the weight and the size of their colony so they can fit on trucks for shipping. Me, I have no need for either one of those things, and neither did Mr. Toth. Mr. Toth was a beekeeper prior to World War II. He was a beekeeper before World War II, then became a airline mechanic in World War II. This is the funny part. He was not an airline mechanic for the Air Force because there was no Air Force.

It was the Army Air Corps. He was a army soldier that worked on airplanes. Anyway, I digressed. He said, "We harvest honey in the spring, so that we would be guessing how much honey they need to survive a Montana winter." I was like, "That is genius." That's what I meant earlier when I said goals and values. I was harvesting in the fall based on the goals and values of a commercial beekeeper, without ever realizing that's what I was doing. When I realized that my goals and values were not the same as a commercial beekeeper, I'm now free to harvest in the spring, which is what I do.

That way, I'm not guessing how much honey they need. Neither one of us is doing it wrong. We're doing it. We're doing what is right for our goals and values. That's so I can take honey off my plate. Back to your original question, which you asked When I'm doing experiments, I do experiments, teach class all at the same time. Believe it or not, and this was fun, I did experiments for Professor Bromenshenk, taught 47 weeks out of the year, and got a PhD. That's how much I love bees. This is going to sound strange, especially to Dr. Masterman.

It wasn't even that hard because I was loving every minute of it. It really is all of my jobs are just study bees because, essentially, that's what I'm doing when I'm helping the student, I'm studying bees. When I'm keeping my own bees, I'm keeping bees when I'm pursuing my PhD. That was really fun because I could ask the question I wanted to ask. On a side note, I would love to come back and talk about my research.

Jeff: We'd love to have you back, Scott. One of these years, it won't be this year, I'd love to get over to Montana during the summer field day and talk with other beekeepers and see what you're doing and just enjoy the wonderful Montana summer.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Yes, that'd be great. For beekeepers that I know and Master Beekeepers like yourself, that I know you're a master keeper, and I know you, we offer, you could be a TA for us. That way, you can experience the entire course, but it'd be free for you. All you have to do is pay for your trip out.

Jeff: Oh, wow. All right.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Keep that in mind. Maybe you don't want to work while you're here, and you just want to take the course, that'd be fine too. I'll be proud to have you as a TA. You kidding me?

Jeff: That'd be fun. Count on it one of these futures, not this summer.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Awesome. Shoot me an email. That's all you got to do.

Jeff: Fantastic. Scott, it's been wonderful having you on the show and talking to us about the University of Montana beekeeping programs and a little bit more about yourself and how you are so involved with everything that goes on there. Thank you.

Dr. Scott Debnam: Thank you very much for having me. I have had a great time. I am sad that it's over.

Jeff: Scott reminded me of a lot of things I'd forgotten about that Master Beekeeper program.

Becky: Did you test out, or did you take all three years?

Jeff: I tested out of the first. Definitely the apprentice.

Becky: Apprentice. Okay.

Jeff: I like taking training. I like classes. The master was really good. With my background as being a paramedic, my research project was more literature review and did a review of the literature on the use of honey in wound dressings.

Becky: Oh, excellent.

Jeff: Yes. That was really interesting from my perspective on medicine. They allowed me to do that. It was really entertaining.

Becky: You're such a good writer. Did you get back to the ancient years?

Jeff: I started there initially just because there was early references to the ancient Egyptians or something like that, but quickly-

Becky: You moved on to modern years.

Jeff: -moved on.

Becky: That's excellent. How long ago did you take the class?

Jeff: Shortly after we started the podcast, because I was just looking to further my education. Like all things like that, you get as much out of it as you put into it. You could float through it and not learn a thing, or you could dedicate yourself to it and learn a lot.

Becky: I'm pretty sure with this one, you learn regardless. It seems like if you are able to make it through all three or both of the journeymen and masterclasses, I'm pretty sure you come out the other end a better beekeeper.

Jeff: That's for sure. Scott was saying the forums and the discussions with the other students in the forums it was really cool because, as you're probably aware, the cohorts tend to stick together afterwards. Even though it's online, you develop a friendship and an understanding, and you can go back to that person, saying, "Hey, how's it going?" You can get caught up where you left off. That's fun.

Becky: Very cool. That was so much fun to learn about, and I have so much respect for Master Beekeepers because of all of the work and dedication that goes into earning that recognition. To hear it from the instructor's side, that was just a blast.

Jeff: That about wraps it up for this episode. Before we go, I want to encourage our listeners to follow us and rate us five stars on Apple Podcast or wherever you download and stream the show. Even better, write a review and let other beekeepers looking for a new podcast know what you like. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the Reviews tab along the top of any webpage. We want to thank Betterbee and our regular longtime sponsors, Global Patties, Strong Microbials, and Northern Bee Books, for their generous support. Finally, and most importantly, we want to thank you, the Beekeeping Today Podcast listener, for joining us on this show. Feel free to leave us questions and comments on our website. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks a lot, everybody.

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