How To Get Started With Bees in 2024, Part 3 of 4 (S6, E38)

S6, E38 - How To Get Started With Bees in 2024, Part 3 of 4

Jeff Ott: Welcome to  Beekeeping Today Podcast presented by Betterbee, your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment. I'm Jeff Ott.

Becky Masterman: I'm Becky Masterman. Today's episode is brought to you by the Bee Nutrition Superheroes at Global Patties. Family-operated and buzzing with passion, Global Patties crafts protein-packed patties that'll turn your hives into powerhouse production. Picture this, strong colonies, booming brood, and honey flowing like a sweet river. It's super protein for your bees and they love it. Check out their buffet of patties, tailor-made for your bees in your specific area. Head over to www.globalpatties.com and give your bees the nutrition may deserve.

Global Patties: Today's episode is brought to you by the Bee Nutrition Superheroes at Global Patties. Family-operated and buzzing with passion, Global Patties crafts protein-packed patties that'll turn your hives into powerhouse production. Picture this, strong colonies, booming brood, and honey flowing like a sweet river. It's super protein for your bees and they love it. Check out their buffet of patties, tailor-made for your bees in your specific area. Head over to www.globalpatties.com and give your bees the nutrition may deserve.

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Jeff: Thanks a lot, Strong Microbials. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the third part of this year's How to Get Started with Bees. Sitting in the virtual studio today are Becky and y'all know Becky.

Becky: Hello, everybody.

Jeff: Paul Longwell, who's a fellow master beekeeper here in the State of Washington.

Paul Longwell: Hello, everybody.

Jeff: Everybody knows Dr. Jim Tew, in Ohio.

Jim Tew: I'm here. Thank you for having me.

Jeff: Not just people in Ohio know you, but everybody knows you. You're [crosstalk] .

Jim: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Becky: He means world famous.

Jim Tew: Nobody knows you or not. One of the things about being old, it doesn't matter.

Jeff Ott: Well, okay. Well, today it does matter because we're talking about equipment and we're talking about when new beekeepers get into the hobby and they're thinking about the beehives and frames and all of that, where do they start? Because they're going to be inundated with so much information, both online and bee catalogs, from friends, from clubs. We're here to help provide some guidance to what's important and what to keep focus on at this point in their beekeeping journey.

Becky: I think sometimes when people start beekeeping, they get really excited because they see a really good Facebook marketplace post with some old used equipment, or they heard that their neighbors are getting out of the beekeeping business and they can get some equipment from them. I think we should really talk about the pros and cons of starting out brand new versus using some of that equipment that other beekeepers and bees have used previously.

Jim: Go with some of those pros and cons, Becky. What do you mean pros and cons? New equipment? Old equipment? Buying? Selling? What?

Becky: I think I'll start with the cons. Let's just start on a low note and then we can just go up from here. One of the cons of buying used equipment is that pathogens follow that equipment. For decades, beekeepers have been warned about American foulbrood. I think that if anybody has ever experienced that in their hive, that might maybe scare them from ever trying the old equipment route again.

Jim: Oh, Becky, have you ever stood at an auction and seen that equipment come up for pennies on the dollar? That little bird that sits on your shoulder says, "Don't forget that American foulbrood. Don't forget that American foulbrood." You'll say, "Yes, but it's going for a dollar a box." If you'll chip in $5, they'll add the solar wax melter with the broken glass.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but I can tell you for a fact, if the deal came along, I would have to look at it. Has that box been scorched out? Has there been anything that you could tell, is there any residual comb? Any way that you could tell there ever had been American foulbrood there? Do you know anything about the person that you're buying from? Were they an upright beekeeper?

Paul: That's very important.

Jim: I would lunge on those things. I agree with everything you're saying, because yes, I've had American foulbrood too, and it's still an old-fashioned frightening disease for those rare people who get it now.

Jeff: When a box has been scorched out, what do you mean for a new beekeeper who's looking at the potential buying equipment?

Jim: There's a colorful system. I don't know if we have time to really get too deeply into it, but you stack up about six deeps that have had brood in them. If you think that American foulbrood has been an issue, they're sitting on a hive top or something, and then you dribble about a, how much Paul, about a quart, maybe a half, a pint of diesel kerosene down the inside, dribble that. Then you toss over a piece of flaming newspaper, and maybe it's odd, it won't catch it first. Probably takes two or three times, and then all of a sudden that flame begins to grow, and that kind of a chimney that's closed off.

Then when it gets to a roar, and you've really got a black fire coming out, yellow flame, black smoke, then put a telescoping cover on top of that stack, snuff out the fire, and then kick the whole stack over, and you should have scorched the inside of those walls. Just about a 32nd to a 64th of an inch deep, and there's nothing that survives that. All those spores, detritus, bacteria, it's gone.

If I'm standing at an auction and I see that somebody scorched it, then I'm probably going to back away from it. There were some issue, somewhere, some concern, and even pennies on the dollar, I don't want it. It's an old technique for reusing AFB-contaminated equipment or AFB-suspected contaminated equipment.

Jeff: Even frames?

Jim: Especially frames. I don't know if I want the frames. Somebody wouldn't argue with that. I basically want the boxes, but the frames have got to have the comb knocked out that they've got the old wiring in them or something. That's going to be a real tedious job. I may not rebuild the frames.

Paul: Frames are too cheap to buy.

Becky: With frames, you can have not just pathogens follow the frames and be embedded in the wax comb, but you can also have pesticides too. Starting clean with frames I think is a really good idea.

Jeff: Regarding frames, that's not only the pathogens, that's one of the reasons why I really don't recommend nukes for beginning beekeepers, because you carry on anything that comes along with those bees, whether it be varroa or disease from last season on those frames. Like Paul said, I think frames are too cheap to buy to have to deal with old frames, if you don't need to.

Jim: We're going down a rabbit hole here on this with minutiae detail, but those frames also have some of the wedge top bars, some of the groove top bars, some of the solid bottom bars, they're all over the page. If you make two or three purchases, then you've got this non-standardized equipment. The frames are not exactly, some of the old root frames, some are dead end. Better be, they're all over the page, and I just stop all of that, turn those frames into kindling, and standardize the frames that I want to use and go from there. Sometimes even plastic frames. I succumb to those.

Becky: I bet we can all agree that there's nothing prettier than bees drying out wax comb on brand-new foundation.

Jim: Yes.

Becky: Okay, I did not get a resounding agreement there, so I'll just keep going. [laughs]

Jim: No, I was envisioning. There's got to be that blue sky and the bees are happy and there's flowers blooming and that wax just miraculously appears. It's just as fragile as a snowflake. No, I completely agree. It's beauty beyond words.

Jeff: My mind went immediately to not only a brood frame, but a medium frame of honey, or a sectional, a basswood section of comb honey. Now, that is beautiful. It's nice white capping. Of course, you won't be getting that at an auction or used, but--

Jim: Edible art.

Jeff: Yes, it's something else. Well, we're way off into the weeds here. I guess we can sum it up at this group really prefers if you're going to buy old equipment, know who you're buying it from. Maybe if you have a mentor and they recommend they have some stuff and you trust the mentor, then that might be a safe option for you. The best option is I think get a kit and build it yourself because you know what it takes and what it's all about.

Jim: You confused me a bit. When you say build it yourself, you mean assemble the kit?

Jeff: Assemble the kit. Apologies. Yes.

Jim: Okay. No apologies required, but sometimes you want to build your own equipment. If you really have the know-how and the tools and the equipment, it's going to be primarily for enjoyment reasons. Not for economical reasons. One of the first thoughts I have, when I saw this bee stuff 100 years ago, was I can build this stuff. Well, kind of got it out of my system, but it's very simple woodworking if somebody wanted to take a stab at that.

Jeff: Well, that's a great transition, Jim, because the building equipment, I think many people have tried to do that themselves. You and Paul have both in the past built your own equipment and even today dabble in building equipment. What would be your recommendations to the beginning beekeeper, first-year beekeeper? If they said, "I have the experience. I've built cabinets, I've built whatever," and they want to build their own equipment.

Jim: It's economics. Sometimes if you're buying a lot of equipment, it's cheaper to buy it at the bee supply unassembled and then just assemble it. For an average beekeeper, why don't you just build the stands or the bottom boards or something like that that's simple? Then leave the boxes which-- You need a good box that meets bee space and everything. Get that from the bee supply store

Jeff: As an old woodworker, I completely agree. See, my world is collided. My woodworking world collided with my beekeeping world. Since I could build those boxes, I even built box joints in the boxes. You are 100% right. I couldn't even buy the raw pine lumber for anything close to the price that I could buy a finished box from a bee supply company. I was just buying a few 100-board feet at the time. You got to buy semi-loads to get that low price. Yes, built the hive stands, and I was going to find the appropriate point to say there's all these other gadgets and devices.

You could build a solar wax melter. Those kinds of things are constructable, and you said that you're building hive stands. There's all kinds of hive stand designs. If one wants to, you can build the boxes. I built frames for one season and got that out of my system. I will never. That top bar alone had something like 12 or 13 different cut setups to get through it. Why would anybody want to build their own frames? I did it. I don't have a single one of them left. I built hundreds. I don't want to throw water on those people who have woodworking devices and skills, but it's just not going to be worth it.

If you're talking money, it's not going to be worth it. If you're talking personal enjoyment, I built this myself. This is made from butternut and all these kind of things you say when you build your own equipment. Then have at it. It's still remarkably enjoyable to buy that clean new equipment from a bee supply company with the smell and the tightness and the joints and the hammering and the nailing and whatever. It's still a lot of fun.

Becky: Maybe you're saying resist the urge to start building your own. Maybe get the knockdown equipment, build it, use it for a little while so that if you do decide you have to build it yourself, you understand maybe the intricacies, especially of that frame and the equipment that you're going to be building. I think that bees are complicated enough, but if you are using equipment that's not quite right, then you might have some other issues as far as navigating propolis and frame width, and spacing that you might miss the importance of those details until you've been keeping bees for a little while.

Jeff: When I was first writing for Kim on bee culture way back when, and it was called Gleanings in Bee Culture then. One of the first big articles I did for him was an article called  Wooden Wear where I bought boxes and frames and supers from every manufacturer and mail-order a house at the time. I laid them all out and measured the rabbit depth and frame lengths and top bar width and everything to realize that not all frames and not all companies fit in the same equipment because they measure bee space in different places. Some expect to get the bee space on top of the frame and line up in the box, and some expect it to be on the bottom of the frame.

Well, that'd be the same. Then some split the difference so that you have a little bit of the bee space on the bottom of the frame and a little bit on the box below and the top frame. It varies. Then when you get outside of that bee space, those parameters, then you do have problems with compatibility between equipment.

As you were saying, Becky, the propolis or the burr comb or stuck frames, everything else that can happen. That's something to consider when you're looking at used equipment. If you buy all your new equipment brand new from the same manufacturer, then pretty much that it's all designed to work and play well together. Speaking of equipment, let's take this quick break to hear from our friends at Betterbee.

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Jim: Jeff, I agree with everything you've just said, but I do want to point out that it is tantalizingly close. Almost all equipment will fit one way or the other inside each other's boxes but leave you just off enough to give you nothing but headaches. Almost all frames will fit, but bee space is not. You're exactly right. It'll mix and match and fool you until you can't figure out why you got this burr comb or why this propolis seal is got these frames stuck together.

Jeff: We're not even talking about 8-frame equipment because everybody has their own dimensions for 8-frame equipment.

Becky: Do you think we should back up and tell everybody? I think we've hinted at it, but just how important bee space is, and why equipment is designed to obey bee space? How we're all slaves to bee space.

Jim: Bee space is a grand pupa of hive design concept. Becky, you brought it up, walk us through it.

Becky: I have to look up the actual numbers. If anybody has a number in their head.

Jim: A quarter inch to three-eighths.

Becky: Oh, very good. Okay.

Jim: A quarter to three-eighths.

Becky: If the space in between the equipment and the frames and in between each box, if it's greater than that. You are going to have a problem because the bees will build comb or add a little bit of extra propolis, which is the sticky resin to fill that space. The equipment has been carefully designed so that the bees put as little of that bridging or burr comb into the space because you will have less unwanted comb in the hive. There's nothing more difficult than to navigate a hive where there's unwanted comb and extra comb because you're going to, one, waste their energy. It's actually an advanced practice to cut out extra sheet of brood or honey and try to make your hive whole again.

Jim: You know you have bee space problems. If you try to separate two deeps and you just can't. When you finally do get them pried apart just full of probably drone comb in between or during the honey season, it'll be just dripping with honey in between two boxes, then you know you have a bee space violation. They're very efficient at letting you know.

Becky: They almost like, give you a ticket. If you forget to put a frame back or if you put an empty box on top of the hive and you think, "Oh, I'll run and grab that later," and leave the bees to take care of it, they are 100% going to really impress with you with how fast they can build comb and how much work you have to do to clean it up.

Paul: It's bee cutout time.

Jim: It's been my experience that bee space is roughly the space that it takes two bees to get by each other inside the hive. That's just my working concept. It's like squeezing down a narrow hallway. It's just enough room for two bees to get by. Anything less than that, they'll fill full of propolis. Anything greater than that, they're going to add some comb to it or fill it in back to that level. That two bees could squeeze by.

I want to say this, and maybe it's just my bees, maybe it's just my porter beekeeping, but bee space is a relative term. If you don't routinely work that hive, if you don't open that bee box for three years, you'll find that the concept of bee space has been pushed to the limit. They've got that thing stuck tight and it'll take more than just a regular hive tool to get in.

Jeff: Yes. Can be [crosstalk] to pull it out.

Jim: Bee space is only pure so long as I maintain it.

Becky: There's a reason why the hive tool is really a pry bar, right?

Jeff: Yes.

Paul: That's when you find out that the frame is stuck to the frame below is when you try to jam up that frame and the top bar separates and you just tap it back down and move to the next frame and say, "Well, we'll get that one later."

Jim: It's always been this way. When I look at these fine new catalogs right now, they're just beautiful, and the equipment options and all the plastic and the wood and the different styles and designs, you think, "Well, the new beekeeper must just be underwater trying to choose all this because even I'm confused." If you look at the old catalogs, you had different options and older options, but they were just as confusing. It's always been yours, mine, and ours. Which one do you like? Which one do you use? Which one should I be using?

If we'd had to leave new beekeepers who've hung on to this point in our discussion here, how would we recommend to someone that out of all the morass of equipment they can choose from, they make their choice? What's our recommendation?

Jeff: Me personally, I would recommend they go with the basics first. There's the two boxes and there's super or two. Just a basic arrangement. Don't try to get fancy your first year on hive with hives.

Jim: I'm 100% on board with that. Would it offend the other three of you if I said, and for the first year or two or three, stay with the company you started with? Instead of mixing and matching equipment, go basic. Just start simple, stay with the same company, and then after you've gone to meetings, seen other open hive demonstrations, may begin to grow and develop there. Somebody shoot holes in that.

Becky: I can't argue with you. I also am really impressed with how so many retailers including Betterbee, they provide assistance along with equipment. A lot of these companies that are selling equipment are made up of beekeepers and they are willing to talk to you about the best use for the equipment or troubleshoot any problems that beekeepers encounter. Do any of you buy equipment that's already been built?

Jim: Paul, I hope you can help with that because I have never bought preassembled equipment.

Paul: I've bought preassembled frames when I was in a rush.

Jeff: I buy everything and assemble my frames. I dislike being out in the woodwork shop and putting them together, even though it takes a lot of time to do.

Jim: I haven't done it, Becky, and I know commercial guys buy them even painted, they are good to go, turnkey.

Becky: Sometimes it's just easier and the prices are pretty good still just to buy that assembled pre-painted equipment and make that the easiest part of your season. There's also, that fun time when you realize that if you don't get another honey souper on that colony quickly, you might just have a swarming problem. There's always that rush to the local store sometimes to grab that extra equipment and that's when a lot of people will buy the preassembled equipment.

Jim: Well, I know that it's there and I don't want to argue with any of you, but it's like you left out a component of a nice meal. You took on this beekeeping thing, but you didn't assemble your own equipment. You skirted something there. You rushed into swarm control before you got really out of the equipment assembly phase. I know what you're talking about and I understand the tediousness. After you've assembled 10,000 frames, do you still enjoy assembling 10,001 frames? Probably gets tedious.

Becky: Not everybody owns a nail gun. If you don't have that equipment to make it easier to put it all together, I think we should tell beekeepers that it's okay to buy it preassembled.

Paul: Yes. Especially the frames. I'm back to those plastic frames. If somebody wanted to take me to task on that, you can buy those box of plastic frames. I got to be careful here because plastic frame producers are probably listening at some point, but they're fast, they're cheap, they're easy to put in. I find that they will rack under the load of a full frame of honey. Give me little fine cracks on the cappings. It lets the honey weep.

Sometimes when I'm trying to really get a frame out that's stuck in hard, the plastic frames will distort just slightly, and sometimes the hive tool will spring by the top bar. You got to flip the thing up on this end. Then you gotta do what Jeff was talking about a bit. Go tap, tap, tap from the bottom to drive the frames up. Those plastic frames, I don't think they're going to go away. There's been some kind of plastic frame device around for 35, 40 years now.

Jeff: In Louisville, there was someone giving away deep plastic frames that were Barbie pink. They were originally developed by another company for cancer awareness, but someone else picked them up and released them after the Barbie movie. I didn't know the bees watched the Barbie movie. There you go.

Jim: I'm not going there with you, Jeff. You're on your own. I'm not going there with you. You got yourself in this hole. You dig yourself out.

Jeff: Well, I can dig out and we can start talking about Jason Statham and  The Beekeeper.

Becky: You know there's a Barbie beekeeping doll out there.

Jim: No, I didn't know that.

Becky: I don't own it.

Paul: Yes, we bought that for my daughter-in-law. I use some classic frames too and plastic foundation but I don't know how many have been given to me because people say the bees won't take it. What they don't realize is even though they say they're waxed from the factory that you need to take some beeswax and melt it and then put another coat on for the bees to take it. It really works really great.

Jim: I came up with this technique, it's not mine, it was straight from the web. I don't know whose technique it is, but I went over to the thrift store and bought a crockpot and put wax in it. Then I bought a three-inch trim roller over at the building supply store and then let that crockpot heat that wax and then re-roll that wax back onto that wax surface if the comb was old or if it rebuilding it or whatever. The bees do have something like an 81% job of accepting that newly reworked rewaxed comb.

Becky: You guys are all about working hard.

Jeff: I couldn't think anything outside brushing it. Didn't work as well. It's just another way to really spend time in beekeeping getting up close and personal with your beehives, rebuilding these foundation inserts.

Becky: I like the inserts so you can pop them out and replace them.

Jeff: All this is good. What we're suggesting is that a new beekeeper, start with the basics. Learn about the equipment and you can learn it best by knocking it together from an assembled or unassembled pieces parts from your local bee supply store and putting your bees in it and learning bee biology and the seasons of the year. We strongly are encouraging it sounds like, to go that route with new equipment.

Let me change subjects real quick. What about, you have all this new foundation, new frames, new equipment, you throw your package of bees in there and they're ready to go, aren't they? Do you need to give them anything else?

Paul: You need to feed them.

Jeff: They feed on flowers, don't they?

Paul: I don't know how many times I've heard that, "There's so much food out there for them. Why do I need to feed them?" Well, you don't bring a puppy home and not feed it. They're livestock. You need to take care of them, you need to feed them. A package doesn't come with any resources at all, so you need to provide sugar water to turn around so they start building wax. The queen can't lay until the wax is put down in the comb, so it takes longer. If you're not providing them resources, you're basically starving them to death.

Becky: Well said, Paul. When we install our packages up here, honestly, there are days where even if there are flowers out there, it's way too cold for them to forage on anything. If you feed them and have a plan so that they can access food 24/7, you're going to have healthier bees. You're going to have a stronger colony and you're going to leave a little less up to chance that you're going to be able to get a honey crop that year.

Jim: All right, I got to push you on that. Frigid Minnesota. Frigid Minnesota. What kind of feeder are you going to use that the bees can feed from, that they can leave the cluster to get to?

Becky: Answer is a gravity feeder. We'll put a one-gallon bucket upside down on the inner cover, and then we'll have an empty shell, so a deep shell protecting it, and a telescoping cover on top of that.

Jim: Just thin syrup? Do you use a thick syrup? Does freezing the syrup inside the hive have an effect, or is the hive able to keep the syrup from being so cold that it still flows?

Becky: It definitely still flows. It's right above the cluster, because we're just in a single deep, and it is a one-to-one syrup. We use two-to-one in the fall when we're prepping them for winter if they need feed, but in the spring, we're one-to-one. How about you?

Jim: I do exactly what you've just said. I do have some of the old top feeders, but the bees had to leave, go up through the channels, get too far from the cluster, and as the weather warmed, they would take that just as well, but those gravity flow buckets and the empty feeder shell around it. I tinkered for a while with solid feed cakes and mashing down fondant here and there. It was more of work-related, more expensive to buy it, tedious to make it. Bees are crazy about taking it, or you can just mix some sugar syrup one-to-one, like you said, and be gone. My first choice was exactly what you've already said.

Paul: That's a good choice.

Jeff: We mentioned getting kits, and often in kits, someone shows a boardman feeder sitting out front. That's the feeder that has the jar attached to it, and it sits upside down in front of the colony. What are your thoughts about that? Is that a viable option for a beginning beekeeper?

Becky: Maybe to put some water out there, but otherwise, I think it's separating your feed from the bees.

Jeff: We're assuming it's spring.

Becky: Even in the spring. Yes. In the spring, you just don't want the bees to have to leave the cluster and get caught at the feeder, even if it's right there at the entrance.

Jeff: Feeding a new colony is important. It's critical to the success of the colony with a one-to-one sugar syrup solution?

Becky: Also, we use a pollen substitute. We make sure that they have some access to a pollen sub until they have a couple of frames of pollen in the hive.

Jim: I do want to say that sometimes, small hive beetles are really thankful when you put that pollen substitute on. They really enjoy you doing that. There are now some small plastic devices that lift the pollen cake off the frames so that the bees can get under it to at least harass the small hive beetles and keep them, to some extent, at bay.

One of the complaints that I've gotten through the years from beekeepers in warm climates at those pollen cakes, especially in smaller hives, is really encourage hive beetle populations. I am relieved to tell you that, at least here in northwest Ohio, that is one issue I don't have to deal with very much, but I'll say that for those people who've vociferously said it to me.

Becky: Also, I remember when I first started keeping bees in the '90s and we'd start a package, we'd put a whole one-pound pollen sub right there on the package. Now we just put maybe a fourth of that. You don't have to be as generous. Maybe you don't have to put the full patty on there.

Jim: I don't know if Paul would agree with me on this, but I was cheap. You'd think, God, I'm throwing away half this patty that I had to pay for. You take a bite of it, it's not very palatable to me. I think the next time, I'm just not going to put a whole patty on there, and I don't. It was that reason. If you don't eat it, I'll give it to you the second time, but if you can't take the whole thing at one time, then I'm not going to put it out there.

Paul: I cut it down into about thirds or fourths, and the rest goes in the freezer until I need it.

Jim: Mine's in the freezer right now, which always elicits comments from people who open-- "What is this?" Yes, well, move the hamburger meat and you'll see that that's my pollen substitutes up there frozen in the refrigerator over here.

Paul: It's not the ice cream I'm looking for on a Friday night. [laughter]

Jeff: Just to remind folks, one of our sponsors, longtime sponsors for the podcast, is Global Patties, and they provide both natural pollen and pollen substitute patty options that you can consider. Speaking of which, not Global Patties, but is there a difference? Should a new beekeeper be concerned whether it's a pollen substitute versus natural pollen in the patty?

Jim: That's going to be a minefield of sorts. There's going to be those who say, and I suspect that Dr. Masterman is going to be one of them, that this is going to be a disease spread if you use contaminated pollen. I'm going to let you guys go with this, and I'll just hear how you handle it, and then I may or may not respond. Go, guys.

Paul: I just buy pollen patties because, for a new beekeeper, they don't even have a way to collect pollen. You don't want to buy pollen from a health food store somewhere where you don't even know where it came from, which is with possible diseases coming in it. So I do it the safe way and go to my bee supply place, and I buy a known quality product, or I buy pollen from-- Not pollen, but a pollen substitute, and then make my own patties.

Becky: I think it's definitely more attractive to the bees if there's real pollen in there. I think the problem with the real pollen, it's not even the pathogens, Jim. It's the pesticides. Some of the studies out there, as far as when bees are bringing in pollen, it's quite devastating to see the fact that depending upon where the pollen is collected, you could have a smorgasbord of different pesticides.

I'd rather the people who are getting great sources of pollen and they know that they're clean, that's a great use of pollen. I think if you just are randomly getting the pollen, or even if you're getting your own pollen and you don't know if it's clean or not, I think it's always a trade-off.

Jim: Yes. In the oldest days, the oldest, oldest days, Dr. Eldon Herbert worked out formulas for brewer's yeast and sugar. That stuff is terrible. Even with sugar, brewer's yeast, to me, tastes terrible. The bees were mainly eating it to get the messy stuff out of the hive, to clean the hive up. He found that if you would just add the smallest amount of natural pollen, that would just almost miraculously encourage the bees to forage on that. At the same time, there was always nosema issues then that they were concerned about.

Whoever asked the question, do you want to use a pollen supplement or a pollen substitute? I'm probably using a substitute just because I can buy it. I don't even know if it has pollen in it. I don't even read the ingredients, so I don't know how to address that. I'm usually buying what's convenient and quick, and honestly, what has the right price on it.

Becky: Regardless, use something.

Jeff: If in doubt, check with your mentor, check with your bee buddy, check with your local club, see what people are using around you and have success with, I think is a good way to do it. We're coming up close to the end of this episode. Next episode, we talk a lot about, the pathogens and pests and diseases of honeybees. Before we get there, we'll get that next week. What about if we're looking at the beekeepers, they've got their hive set up, they're looking good, they've built their own equipment.

They've knocked it all together, their frames are all set, the bees packages are all set because we've installed the bees from our original series. How do you consider growing and expanding? Just really quick in terms of adding space. When do you know when to add a second hive body? Just real briefly at a high level, what should a beginning beekeeper consider one or two deeps for hive bodies?

Becky: I always say a single deep system is an advanced management because you're going to be doing an awful lot of swarm patrol. I would say, for sure, start with at least a two-deep system, but don't give them all that space at first. You need to wait until that first deep is-- A rule of thumb for a lot is 80%. I like to tell people 70% is just fine, and then you can even out the bottom box when you have more drawn frames on the top.

Just make sure you're keeping that brood nest together and not separating the young from the cluster, so when you expand them up into the second box, when you add it, we say bring a resource frame, little bit of nectar. It doesn't have to be 100% drawn up, but just place it right in the middle of the second deep and make sure all those frames are touching each other so you obey bee space and keep feeding if you think that your bees need it.

Jim: Paul, I don't disagree with what Becky said. Do you have anything you want to add? Do you have a different take, a similar take?

Paul: No. 70% to 80% of the first box full. Then I'll put another box on top. One thing you got to remember, that if you give bees too much space, they just sit there and don't know what to do with it. They'll just stay and do whatever they want to do, but it's not logical what they'll do. I just go one box, 70% to 80%, then I'll put them in the next box on.

I don't put a super on until that's 70% to 80% full, and then my supers go on. Then when I put a new super on when it's getting full, I'll put the next super underneath the full super, which then draws them up into that. If I put a super on top of the super that's already full, they never go there.

Jeff: You're talking about honey supers. Let's talk about that real quickly. When should a beekeeper put on a honey super?

Jim: Not sure you can do this real quickly but this is my best effort. [laughter] What's the season? Is the season just starting? Am I seeing whiting? Am I seeing new wax coming in and are there flowers everywhere? If my box is already a third to a half deep, they're going to fill that in just a couple of days if everything stays good weather.

At that point, like Paul was talking top super, under super, do whatever you want to do, but get more space on to stop them from putting honey in the brood nest area. As long as they're filling those deeps up until the point that I know the season's running out, in my case, it's coming up on July the 10th or so. I'm beginning to see the septic feel layout in the front yard from the weather drawing out.

The flowers are fading and I know that the spring season's passing, then at that point, I want them to finish what they've started. I would not keep adding equipment. I'd keep moving frames around to be sure that they finished capping and they finished everything rather than give them the space that Paul talked about that they don't know what to do with now because nothing's coming in.

Jeff: If I can summarize. We've got them to start with a single deep, with a feeder on, and then when it gets 70% to 80% full, then they can add the second deep and continue feeding for as long as they're pulling out the foundation. Then when they get to the point and there's a lot of springtime is really going and you start seeing honey coming in, you see the whiting as Jim talked about, you'll see it just a real light white, bright white wax edging on everything, you know that it's a really good time, should be no doubt putting on a honey super. We'll just go around the table really quick. I'm going to put you all on the spot. One answer. Becky, queen excluder, no queen excluder?

Becky: For a beginner, yes. Otherwise--

Jeff: Okay. Paul?

Paul: No.

Jeff: Jim?

Jim: Yes. I'm a yes. So, Paul, you lose. No, I'm just kidding.

Becky: I don't use them except for-- I rarely use them. For a beginner, it's a really good idea. I'd say this is one answer. If you're not comfortable finding your queen, picking her up, and moving her to a different box, then a queen excluder probably makes sense.

Paul: Yes. Very selective use of it.

Jim: I do. He just left me with a one-sentence, one-word answer, yes. I am selective. I'm very selective but at the proper time, I'll use it. I'm that guy who was in the extracting room and you glance the stack of equipment and there's a queen wandering up the side of it and you have no earthly idea where she came from or anything about her but you know, you dequeen the colony when you brought in some brood in one of those supers.

Jeff: That's better than sitting in the living room, taking off your shoes, and seeing something with a yellow dot on-

Becky: Oh, no.

Jeff: -in the Vibram lug sole . Isn't it, Jim?

Jeff: That was my story.

Jim: Yes, it was.

Becky: Oh, no.

Paul: I borrowed that from you.

Jim: I have one suggestion. Get more equipment than you think you need. You never know when it's May and you got to swarm because you didn't do something and you have a whole hive of bees sitting on a tree and you don't have a box to put them in. It's always try to have equipment before the bees need it because trying to play catch-up is heck.

Jeff: It definitely is. The bees won't wait for you. They have a way to take care of anything they need and it's up to you to keep you ahead of them. All right, thanks a lot, everybody. I hope you join us next week when we will be joined by Dr. David Peck from Betterbee. The topic is Honeybee, Pest, and Predators. That about wraps it up for this episode.

Before we go, I want to encourage our listeners to follow us and rate us five stars on Apple Podcast wherever you download and stream the show. Even better, write a review and let other beekeepers looking for a new podcast know what you like. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the reviews along the top of any webpage.

We want to thank our regular episode sponsors, Betterbee, Global Patties, Strong Microbials, and Northern Bee Books for their generous support. Finally, and most importantly, we want to thank you, the  Beekeeping Today Podcast listener for joining us on this show. Feel free to leave us questions and comments at the Leave a Comment section under each episode on the website. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks a lot, everybody.

[00:44:53] [END OF AUDIO]