A Winter Quilt of Guests (S6, E27)

S6, E27 - A Winter Quilt of Guests

Wes Henry: Hey, everybody, this is Wes Henry, president of the Capital City Beekeepers in Frankfort, Kentucky. You're listening to  Beekeeping Today Podcast.

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Jeff Ott: Welcome to  Beekeeping Today Podcast, your source for beekeeping news, information and entertainment, presented by Betterbee. I'm Jeff Ott.

Becky Masterman: I'm Becky Masterman.

Kim Flottum: I'm Kim Flottum.

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Jeff: Thank you, Sherry. A quick shout out to all of our sponsors whose support allows us to bring you this podcast each week without resorting to a fee-based subscription. We don't want that and we know you don't either. Be sure to check out all of our content on our website. There you can read up on all our guests, read our blog on the various aspects and observations about beekeeping, search for, download and listen to over 200 past episodes.

Read episode transcripts, leave comments and feedback on each show, and check on podcast specials from our sponsors. You can find it all at www.beekeepingtodaypodcast.com. Hey, Wes, thank you for that great opening from Lexington, Kentucky. Wes, I'll be in Kentucky in a couple weeks at the North American Honeybee Expo. Make sure you look for me in booth 706 right next to the Betterbee.

Becky: Nice. I hope that you're adding Kentucky to the  Beekeeping Today Podcast opening map so we can track where those recordings are coming from.

Jeff: Thanks for the reminder, Becky. We are starting our annual mapping exercise of where our listeners come from. Wes, you are the first person to respond since we made that announcement. We are going to mark off Kentucky. Now if someone is listening and they're also from Kentucky, feel free to send us a listener opener because we'd love to have you. We're making a little contest here to see who and which states we can get on our map as calling in.

Becky: I'm excited because I bet there are some listeners who are outside of the country who are going to try to have us put them on a map too. I hope your mapping skills are well tuned.

Jeff: I can Google anything, Becky.

[laughter]

We do have listeners all around the world. Even though we are putting the map and we're focused on the states, if you're from outside the United States, feel free to send us an opening. I think that would be super special and we'd love to hear from you.

Becky: We want to hear from you. I will say that all these listeners from the United States and from the world are because you and Kim built this podcast.

Jeff: Thank you, Becky. This is our first episode after the passing of Kim Flottum. We definitely miss him here. He'd want us to keep going. The show is for the listener. It's not about Kim. It's not about me. It's not about you, Becky. Sorry, Becky.

[laughter]

It's not about us. It's for our listeners and that's always been the drive and focus of the podcast. Kim would want us to keep going. With that, we are just going to keep moving along. We do appreciate all of the thoughtful tributes and memories that people have sent in. We are collecting those. We will provide those or send them on to Kathy and Kim's family. Stay tuned for future updates.

Becky: I am guessing this won't be the last time we talk about Kim on  Beekeeping Today Podcast.

Jeff: No. Kim is permanently a part of  Beekeeping Today Podcast. Rest in peace, Kim. We're thinking of you. On today's show, Becky, it is a quilt of a show of beekeeping today. There are multiple themes, multiple stories going on. You haven't been on since Ed Colby has delivered a story. Ed Colby is a beekeeper from Colorado who writes regularly in  Bee Culture Magazine. If you don't know the name, you have seen his work. He's the very last column in  Bee Culture Magazine. Ed is a character. He's part of our regional beekeepers panel. He's delivered us a Christmas tale, a special story for Christmas. For this week's episode, we'll be hearing from Ed here in just a few short seconds.

Becky: What a nice holiday gift for the podcast.

Jeff: Yes, it is. Then you have a special guest after Ed.

Becky: I do. I was able to interview Anandamayi Baker. Anandamayi and I had a lovely conversation about a book she wrote that's called  Bee-Coming Strong. It is a book that is mainly for children. It has lovely illustrations, a lovely story. She spent time learning about the honeybee and the hive, and the hive life. It's honestly something I think the listeners will enjoy.

Jeff: I look forward to hearing it. It sounds like a great book for the child of any age.

Becky: Exactly. It was just released in November and it is available now in December. Hopefully if somebody needs that last-minute gift for somebody in their family or for a child in their life, they're going to learn about the book and see if it's right for them, and take advantage of it.

Jeff: Fantastic. Coming up after your talk with Anandamayi, we have a listener question that we have brought in an expert to answer. Trevor had a question specifically about feeding an ah-shah hive or AZ hive. We went directly to an expert, to the North America expert on AŽ hives, Jonna Sanders. That was a fun interview and that's coming up after our talk with Anandamayi.

Becky: Honestly, the conversation we have with Jonna, if you do not have a question about feeding an AZ hive, you still want to stay tuned because it was an interesting conversation. It turns out that Trevor's question was excellent and it's not as straightforward as you might seem. If you listen to how she describes these hives, if you are a beekeeper who's using a standard Langstroth hive, you will love the story of learning about AZ hives. That was another holiday treat.

Jeff: I hope everyone has a great holiday season coming up. I know I'm looking forward to it.

Becky: Happy holidays to everybody. Let's hear from Ed and his Christmas story.

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Ed Colby: This little piece, a Christmas story, appeared in the January 2014 issue of  Bee Culture Magazine. The best time to sell honey is Christmas. In the Aspen Mountain Ski Patrol locker room, I harangued my coworkers, reminding them that my classic blast hex jars of high-altitude honey are the cheapest stocking stuffers they're going to find. Still, there's been some grumbling about price. Gorp's one of my best patrol customers. He chides me that my annual price hikes exceed increases in the consumer price index. "I remember when you were selling quarts for $9," Jimmy chimes in.

My increases reflect the sky-high wholesale price of honey, the local competition, along with, of course, my bottom line. I don't want to gouge, but why should I play the fool? I'm in this sideline business not to get rich, but because it's in my blood. It has unique challenges. None of my customers has ever awakened in the night worrying about varroa mites or American foulbrood. I like to keep it simple. My response to the whiners is almost always the same. Cheapest honey in the valley. This might even be true. At Christmas, I like to hit the ski school locker room too.

These guys are getting their first paychecks, along with fat tips from all the movie stars and Wall Street bankers. Honey flies out the door. Last year, I got behind and the patrol cleaned me out of locker room honey. They wanted more. Meanwhile, my gal, Marilyn, was selling honey faster than I could degranulate it. I wanted to make a special trip to Aspen on Christmas Eve to peddle to the ski instructors, but I was running out of liquid honey. I figured I could degranulate a couple of five-gallon buckets the night before. Who needs sleep anyway?

There was a catch. I promised to go caroling with some ski patrol chums on the night before Christmas Eve. I didn't see how I could weasel out. The best I could hope for was that the caroling somehow fell through. For some cynics, anything that smacks of religion is not so cool. Plus, unlike drinking, Christmas caroling is not a traditional ski patrol custom, and you have to sing whether you hit the notes or not. My pal, Steve, has a certain infectious enthusiasm, and this was his baby. He got a few takers. I didn't have the heart to tell him no.

On the appointed night, a handful of patrollers sat around the locker room after work, beer mugs in hand, waiting for caroling reinforcements from the other three Aspen area ski patrols. "They'll be here," Steve kept reassuring us. An hour later, we knew we'd been stood up. I was thinking about a long drive and warming that honey. I figured I'd break up this party. I said, if we're not going to carol, I need to get home to two loving arms. With this, our boss, Bud, leaped to his feet. "Thanks for throwing down the gauntlet, Ed," he cried. "Let's do it."

My heart sank, but I jumped into the back of Bud's ancient pickup with the rest of the crew. We started off with a rousing chorus of  Jingle Bells as we headed downtown. Hey, this wasn't so bad. Aspen was packed for the holidays. People waved as we put our poor best into  Silent Night,  Deck the Halls, and  We Three Kings. Children stared transfixed as if they'd just seen the Blessed Virgin Mary or even Santa Claus. Outside an eatery were dozens of paparazzi, waited for a shot of somebody famous. All heads turned as we passed.

I expected somebody to yell at us to take some voice lessons, but everybody on the streets acted as if they appreciated our willingness to get into the spirit, even if we really weren't very good. I was freezing in the back of that truck and hoping we'd done our due when Bud announced we were headed for the senior center on the outskirts of town. We arrived unannounced, but the person in charge agreed to ask the residents, most of whom had retired for the evening, if they might like to see and hear the ski patrol carolers.

Yes indeed, they did want to hear some caroling. Seniors filed in on unsteady feet with walkers and wheelchairs beaming as they joined in on old holiday favorites. We finally sang ourselves out. I never in my life felt so popular. I got home late. I didn't get the honey warm that night or make it to the ski school locker room to cash in on Christmas Eve, but maybe I'm the richer for it.

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Are you in a Christmas panic? Put the light in your favorite beekeeper's eye with a $25 signed copy of  A Beekeeper's Life. Tales from the Bottom Board, and Ed Colby,  Beekeeping Treasury. Contact the author at coloradobees1@gmail.com That's coloradobees1@gmail.com for speedy delivery, and have a Merry Christmas.

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Becky: Thank you, Strong Microbials. Anandamayi Baker, you have written a book and it involves honeybees. Can you introduce yourself for our listeners, please?

Anandamayi Baker: Hi. First off, thank you so much for having me, Becky. Your podcasts are wonderful. I've listened to several of them and I just love them. I wrote a book called  Bee-Coming Strong. It was never my intention to be an author. It was not anything I had really thought about, although when I remembered that when I was 21, I went to some kind of a psychic and he said, you're going to write a book. I said, what? What am I going to write a book about? He said, oh, you don't know anything now, so it's not going to be for a long time. Here we are.

Becky: I love that. Planted the seed.

Anandamayi: Realizing it, yes. I wrote this book because the whole idea started when I lived on Palomar Mountain, which is in northern San Diego County. It's beautiful. I noticed in my time up there, working up there, that children were freaked out about bees. They would scream and run. They were terrified of these tiny little things. I would be having the opposite experience when I'd meditate outside. They would come and walk around the palms of my hand. Which is interesting because I know you and probably all your listeners, you have relationships with thousands and thousands of bees, right?

Becky: We do, yes.

Anandamayi: I have relationships with one little bee at a time. [laughs]

Becky: It brought you to becoming an author, which I think is a lovely connection that you had with this bee or a few different bees.

Anandamayi: Originally I thought, I'm going to write a cute little-- like a Dr. Seuss little rhymey book about bees so children will maybe be more curious about them. I bought a little-- what's it called?  Idiot's Guide to Writing a Children's Book.

Becky: I did not know those existed. I think that a couple of our listeners just made that note. Thank you.

Anandamayi: I think that's Idiot's Guide or whatever, but--

Becky: Dummies Guide, I bet.

Anandamayi: I started writing all these little fuzzle, wuzzle, cuzzle, rhymey things. I went to India, had a hip replacement, was writing it there, came back, started work again and put the whole thing away and forgot about it until the pandemic. Then I realized, I had that book I was doing. I wonder if it's even relevant. I wrote a couple of friends of mine who are therapists, as well as a friend who's helping to raise her granddaughter, her lovely grandchild. I said, what are children going through these days? Because I thought, I got other things I could be doing with my life.

I don't have to write this. Is it even relevant? Becky, the answers they all gave me were so similar. It was heartbreaking because they just talked about, especially because it was the beginning of pandemic, nobody knew what was going on. Children were terrified, were having anxiety, meltdowns. There was bullying and just all kinds of things. I thought, no, I can't write a silly little Seuss rhymey book if I'm going to do anything.

I asked the universe, if you want me to write this, make it very clear, because I don't know. I need clarity when I ask things of the universe. The next day I had to drive for an hour and a half for a doctor's appointment. It was pouring rain and very cold. Went into the office, came back out, still raining, still cold. Got on the freeway, started looking in the side view mirror. There's a little bee clinging to the side view mirror. In the pouring rain, cold. You know bees don't do that.

Becky: I think I've seen this bee on your website, that little girl.

Anandamayi: That is right.

Becky: This bee meant an awful lot to you.

Anandamayi: Yes. She was the affirmation, so how clear can you get? Yes.

Becky: May I ask, did you talk to a beekeeper, or how did you get the insight to be able to place your character inside as a worker bee, a very young worker bee with a queen that she gets to talk to? I love that.

Anandamayi: That's a really good question, Becky. Part of it is I did a lot of reading. Then part of it is, and your listeners will love this, have you ever seen Martin Dohrn's  My Garden of a Thousand Bees documentary?

Becky: I haven't, but I recently read-- I think I read about it on this podcast actually. I think this podcast touched on it years ago. Because it was released in the pandemic, wasn't it?

Anandamayi: Yes, that's why he made it during the pandemic. He's an award-winning cinema photographer. He's worked all around the world. He's done magnificent things. He was getting ready to go on travels to do something. Then the pandemic started and all of a sudden he couldn't do anything. He lives in England. He had this huge garden with lots of different species of bees. He thought, I'm used to filming nature. I'm going to work out something to film them.

Starting from when he was really young, he used to develop cameras and things. He developed cameras and changed them around so that he could be right up close with the camera without freaking out the bees. He got to know these bees. They got to know him and he-- oh my gosh, it's an incredible documentary. Everyone will love it. It's won a lot of awards. It's free. You can watch it on PBS.

Becky: Oh, that's great. We will definitely share that in the show notes.

Anandamayi: He's a wonderful man. In fact, I wrote him and told him about the book, asked him if he'd read a little blurb. He loved the book. In fact, he schooled me. He gave me some information because I don't want to give away the ending, but Jazianzza meets up with some hornets.

Becky: Which is very topical, actually, in the beekeeping world right now. That was an impressive tie-in.

Anandamayi: There had to be a protagonist, right?

Becky: Exactly.

Anandamayi: What I didn't know, because at the beginning when I'd written it was going to be, she meets King Hemizill Hornet. What Martin told me is, no, it's not male bees. It's female hornets. I changed her to Queen Hemizill Hornet. He's lovely. All your listeners and their children won't be able to turn away from that documentary. It's wonderful. It was a conglomeration of all that. Just meditating on it all, that helped inform that book. Lars Chittka talks about how smart bees are. Jazi proves his point. She is curious. She's learned how to talk to me so that I could translate her words into the book. She really learns a lot and gives the readers what she's learned from MamaQueenzieBee and Tree, and Lydah Butter Fly.

Becky: Anandamayi, can you tell me, is there a recommended age, besides adult, because I was definitely entertained? What is the youngest age that you recommend this book for?

Anandamayi: I've had a couple different editors tell me between 4 and 10. Because I've written it on a lot of different levels to try to keep the attention of a lot of different age groups. On each page, there's at least one little illustration so that somebody who can't read and can only listen is going to be able to have a nice little wonderful illustration by Akiko Martinache to keep their attention. It talks about parts of bees for children that are older.

Also, one of my big hopes in writing the book was for children, well, and adults, to become more interested in and connected with nature. Jazianzza notices, she pays attention, for instance, to how slowly Lydah Butter Fly flaps her wings compared to her own. Because I want children to be able to stop paying attention to their devices so much and notice, oh my God, nature is marvelous. Nature has so much to look at. It's written on that level too.

Becky: I think that may be one of the reasons why I enjoyed it so much, is because I went to school to study entomology and you do bring entomology in and out of the story. You weave it very beautifully, as well as some topics today, such as flowers and the need for more flowers. You did a lovely job there. I don't want to give away the book. I want people to enjoy it for themselves.

As you mentioned, you're trying to engage people and share nature with them, but you're doing that on your website. This is not just a book that you wrote. This is a relationship that you want to have with readers. If people go to your website, they're asked to sign up potentially to receive your newsletter. There's also a lot of information there. Do you want to talk about that? Because that's a whole another project.

Anandamayi: Yes, it is. I didn't know anything when I started all this. I was really fortunate. In fact, remember the experience I told you about sitting in front of Pep Boys and wondering how the heck am I going to get this? A couple days later, I think it was, is when I found out about a wonderful author book club. If any of your listeners are thinking about becoming an author or are an author and want to further it, I found out just a couple days later about this wonderful-- it's called the Happily Ever Author Book Club.

Becky: Oh, interesting.

Anandamayi: People around the world are part of it. It's so supportive. Sue Campbell, who started it, is brilliant. It was because of her that I started this website and started a monthly-- it's only monthly newsletter. It's not too long. The website, which is my name, anandamayibaker.com.

Becky: We will have that in the show notes because if you try to spell Anandamayi versus say Anandamayi, you'll get two very different answers. [chuckles]

Anandamayi: That's right. That's really true.

Becky: Your book is available on Amazon, correct?

Anandamayi: Yes.

Becky: Our show notes are going to be chock full of information because we will also direct them to the link on Amazon where they can purchase your book. I will say that the way you've captured beekeeping is the way a lot of beekeepers will talk about it. A lot of the beekeepers that I'm friends with will say, if we're having a bad day, we need to get to the bees. Because once you're in that colony, it is very meditative and you have that sense of peace. I love that you were able to capture that in a book and then translate that for children. It's another way, I guess, beekeeping can be beneficial.

Anandamayi: Thank you. Thank you for that. Thanks for saying that. Thank you. I'm hoping it's not just beekeeping, but if children can look at bees in a whole different way, if they can be curious about it, and that will lead them to be more curious and feel protective of all pollinators and then nature. We're passing on a planet that has been damaged by people who haven't really paid attention to the wonders of nature. I'm hoping this will one little drop of honey to spread out.

Becky: Jazi and all of her friends, which she has many, Jazi and her friends, and her sisters, I think are able to really-- you've really helped them bring that message. It is bigger than beekeeping and that is certainly clear. Anandamayi, thank you so much. Thank you so much for talking to  Beekeeping Today Podcast about your book. We're encouraging everybody to check it out and order a copy for themselves, for their children, for their library. Let's just get the word out.

Anandamayi: Becky, thank you so much. It's been a joy being with you. You're really wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for what you're doing about just for bees and for nature in general.

Becky: Very much appreciated. Looking forward to your next book, but for now, we will say thank you and it's been a pleasure.

Anandamayi: For me as well.

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Jeff: Jonna, I appreciate you being here today. In all seriousness, the reason you're here, and you've been on the show before, you were on the show back in October of 2021 and you talked about the AŽ hive and the AŽ hive system. We've had a listener question here in the last month or so. They're talking about feeding on the AŽ hive. Trevor up in British Columbia wrote in with a question. It's a pretty detailed question which I appreciate because it helps you, helps us to understand what his situation is.

I forward that to you. It basically comes down to best way to feed the AZ or the AŽ hive during the winter months and early spring. My request to you, Jonna, is to talk with us, one about-- for our listeners who may not know what the AŽ hive is, they should check out our earlier episode with you. For right now, can you give us a high-level understanding what the AZ, AŽ Hive is? Why is it different from the standard 10-frame Langstroth hive? Then we'll get into answering Trevor's question.

Jonna Sanders: Sounds good. The Slovenian Aja Hive is a beekeeping system that was developed in the very early part of the 1900s by a gentleman whose name was Anton Žnideršič. The name of the hive, AŽ, comes from his name, Žnideršič and Alberti, who was a beekeeper in Switzerland who heavily influenced the development of this hive system with removable combs, removable frames, and so he gave a nod to that in developing the name of the system. Ah-shah is the way it's pronounced in the United States. A lot of people refer to them as AZ hives.

The system has been in use since around 1902. What makes it more unique than the Langstroth system is the ability to completely pick up either a two-level or three-level hive, place it into a separate structure, and that could be a barn, that could be a shed, that could be a small outbuilding or something the size of a doghouse even, raised up 18 inches, and then move that system up into a different location easily for transport. The combs, as compared to a Langstroth system, while they are worked from the backside, the bees are kept inside what looks like a cabinet, your kitchen cabinet, with an interior door and an exterior door.

The frames in this system are moved horizontally just the same as you would pull books from a shelf. It requires no lifting of heavy boxes. Once the hives are placed into whatever secondary structure they are to remain in, then they're essentially not moved again, unless you wanted to put them into a mobile system where you could move them easily with the aid of a truck or a trailer to a different location for, say, pollination services. It's a very unique system that's been in use for about 120 years, but it really isn't known well outside of Eastern and Central Europe.

Jeff: You said it's the frames are stacked into this box and much like a bookshelf, and they're stacked on top of each other. How do you access them? Do you remove it? Is there a side panel or something at the top? Not the top, but obviously there's something. You have to get to 'em, right? How's that sealed up?

Jonna: If you would think about the cabinets you probably keep your dishes in your kitchen, you have an exterior door which you open the same as you would your kitchen cabinet. Then at each shelf level, it's essentially a shelf. The frames are held aloft by metal bars that run from right to left. There is an internal door inside that has what are essentially metal teeth on it. Top and bottom, each level has two on the front side, the bee side, and two on the back side on the doors, the inner doors.

This is what maintains your bee space. Essentially you remove that, and then you have full access to the frames, which you just pull out horizontally one by one to do your inspections. Rather than lifting a 60-pound box, you're lifting a 6-pound frame. For this reason, they're highly adaptable to people with disabilities, to elderly-- my 10-year-old has his own hive and he manages it successfully on his own. He does not require any guidance or assistance in lifting from me.

Jeff: Wow.

Becky: Jonna, does propolis or popolis, does that make it hard to get the frames out, or is that handled easily?

Jonna: The interesting thing about these hives, there's a century of research and development into how they currently look. The frames look slightly different than they do in a Langstroth hive. In a Langstroth frame, obviously they're tapered, but they're also flat top and bottom. In an AŽ frame, they are consistently the same width throughout the length of the hive. They are also coved on the top and the bottom. What that means is that you have two small points of contact where those frames are resting on those metal bars. The reason that they are designed like that is to minimize propolis.

One of the problems that people are getting into when they're looking to transition systems or looking at the system is that there's a lot of bad information out there that you can simply take Langstroth frames, put them into this sort of cabinet-style hive, and think it's going to go well. What ends up happening is that you have a full inch of propolis development area there on the bottom of your frames. People will put them in there, and then they can't get them out. Really, the coved top and bottom frames are there for a reason.

The other thing that's really interesting about this hive system is because it creates a very unique micro environment for the bees, there's about 2% less viscosity in the honey that are coming from AŽ hives as compared to Langstroth hives. We can actually take your frames out, flip them over, put them back in, and you do not have honey running out of your frames. It's a really interesting system. You can make sure that the bees have the opportunity to use every inch of those frames and fill them out.

Becky: Are you using less smoke then when you're doing an inspection?

Jonna: I don't even use a smoker anymore. I haven't used one for a couple of years. There are some unique smoke sticks that are used with these frames. It looks like they're about an inch wide, they're about 10 inches long, and it's essentially like, what would you say, an incense stick. You light it, and I just wave it a little bit between the frames and then set it aside, and that's it. This hive system was built for Carniolans, which are a more gentle, less aggressive bee type to begin with. Normally in Slovenia, people are managing, free hands and just avail.

Jeff: The management system for a AŽ hive, a lot of people use them, they set up-- it's limited in terms of how high it can go. Maybe this is where Trevor might be getting into problems in terms of his thinking. A standard Langstroth hive, you can just stack a feeder on top, or you can stack your fondant on top, you can stack your pollen patty on top. If you can't go any higher, because maybe you're in the shed, or you're in some sort of other enclosure for the AŽ hive, how is feeding accomplished?

Jonna: This is the key to the system. This management style is different than Langstroth. One of the things that I do, and I tell new beekeepers starting out with AŽ, is during the summer flow, when you have some beautiful new capped frames of honey, for every hive that you have, put two or three away in the freezer. Just stick them in the freezer, June, beginning of July, so that you have those to feed back January, February, March, as an additional resource for your bees. It sounds like, to me, Trevor is doing everything right. This is a system that uses an internal feeding system.

Is either, some of them I've seen use what are essentially a 1 liter bottle, or 1.5 liter bottle system for feeding. The ones that I have, it's a 1.5 liter plastic jug that it's the same material that is used for milk bottles, with a feeding tube that the bees crawl down and then walk back up to access. It sounds like Trevor's doing everything right. You feed essentially in from-- I'm feeding continuously mid August until they won't take it anymore in the fall. Then I remove my bottles. The other thing that you do in winter with these hives is that, if you were running a three-level hive, you would remove those top frames, you would compress them down to two levels.

If you're running a two-level AŽ hive, which is the traditional system, they're usually there for the last 50, 60 years, they've traditionally been, 2 levels, 20 frames. In Slovenia, the vast majority of beekeepers send their bees into winter with just 1 level, 10 frames. They are not using 20 frames. They're setting that additional level aside. They have a bee board that they put in. Mine happened to be PVC plastic that slides in there underneath those three bars on that second level to completely seal it off.

Goes in right into the queen excluder. One of the things that you can do, in Trevor's case, if he's concerned, obviously there are devices like BroodMinder that you can use that are very successful that will help you keep an eye on what's going on. The beauty of the AŽ system is it can be negative 20 degrees in Minnesota and you have your bees in a structure, you have them in a shed, you can go in there, you can open up that rear door and there's an integral piece of foam. There's a 2-inch foam that runs the length of that entire cabinet, but you can peel that back and you can see where your bees are at.

It'll be mid January and I'm concerned about them, I'll open up that door, peel that foam back real quick, giving them a quick pop to see where they're buzzing, and I know, are they on that first level, are they on that second level, are they on bottom frames or outside frames, are they in the middle, where are they at? Then I know where they're at with their honey consumption, their resources. Generally what I will do is on a really nice warm day in January or February, if I'm concerned, is I'll open up that second level, I'll pull out that, block-out board in my queen excluder and give them access there, and just slide a few frames in there so that they can move up if they need to.

That is one thing that I always advise new beekeepers using AZ to do. The other thing that you can do is that you can-- if you're working with, say, you've put all of your bees into your bottom level and your second level is completely open, it's completely without frames, you can remove that queen excluder, that block-out board, and you can put pollen patty on a patty pipe. You can create some sort of smaller feeder with number eight hardwood cookware cloth, and you can just use a sugar patty. You can feed with fondant there. I have not had a problem with Birkholm.

Really, I think the goal is to send your bees into winter with 10 full frames of honey, and then have a few in reserve. You can use an internal feeder there that you can put in there, that are commercial off the shelf. I don't know what your restrictions are on various retailers. There are some that will fit into, a standard deep box. If it'll fit into a standard deep box, it will fit into that second level or third level of a standard AŽ hive. The frames that I'm running are same size as a Langstroth deep, and so there's plenty of room in there.

Jeff: Just so that we're not confusing people, but they are the same size, but they are not Langstroth frames.

Jonna: They are the same size. They accept a Langstroth deep foundation, but they are not Langstroth frames. I strongly caution people against, trying to use those hives just because it tends to be sort of a nightmare for them. Not being able to get your frames out is a problem. They require, I would say, going in every single week to remove propolis, to make sure-- Other than that, the system is a brilliant system that is highly adaptive.

Jeff: Langstroth frames can be used if you only want to use them once and leave them in permanently.

Becky: Don't say that.

[laughter]

Jeff: I tease. I tease.

Jonna: Unfortunately it becomes a problem. It really does.

Jeff: Oh, I can imagine.

Jonna: Buyer beware because unfortunately, as a point of cultural pride, a lot of what Slovenia is doing is only available in the Slovenian language. It's a difficult language. It's not translated into English very often. There's not a lot of guides for this. I've been told that I should write one, and amongst other things. Maybe I will. Dr. Janko Božič has a great book out, which is in English. I highly advise everyone that if you're considering AŽ to look at his book on-- I think it's called,  A-Ž Beekeeping with the Slovenian Hive is the title. It's a great resource.

Jeff: Fantastic. You just mentioned the book,  A-Ž. What about your website? What is your website and where can people get a hold of you should they have any additional questions or additional information about the AŽ hive?

Jonna: Our website is www.azhivesnorthamerica.com. There is an info tab on there. If you have questions, you can just type in an email and it comes right to me.

Jeff: Great. There's a couple AŽ hive Facebook pages anywhere?

Jonna: The one that myself and a couple of other Slovenian American beekeepers manage is called-- this is not a marketing site. Let me just say that upfront. This is an advocacy and education site, but the website, the Facebook site is, Slovenian AZ Hive Advocacy is the name of the group. We have people there from all over the world. A lot of experts who've been keeping AŽ beehives in Slovenia for three or four decades. There's a deep knowledge pool to draw from. I'm excited to report that I think we have AŽ beehive keepers in every state in the US, and a lot in Canada, including some in BC. If Trevor or others were to come join us, I think that they would find a local community close to them that they could collaborate with.

Jeff: Fantastic.

Becky: I love the system and I love learning about it. I'm wondering what kind of bees Trevor has in his hives. Because from what I'm hearing from you, if he maybe started with Italians, that colony might be too big to manage well in the system, because they might be too warm. They could cause them to go through their resources. I think that's just a interesting point.

Jonna: I think that's really a large part of the key to making the system work. Because the native bee species in Slovenia is the Carniolan. If you are a member of the Slovenian Beekeeping Association there, you were only keeping Carniolans. They are trying very, hard to keep  ligustica genetics out of that gene pool for just that reason. They think they're too aggressive and they think that they burn through resources too fast. We discussed this in the last podcast with Jeff, but those beekeepers towards the western side of Slovenia, we're in about Italy, you can clearly see the genetic difference there.

Carniolans are gray and black, and Italians are more yellow. What we have in this country is not what I would consider to be genetically a pure Carniolan strain. As a result, they're more aggressive across the board than you would see with Carniolans in Slovenia. However, the ability to overwinter a colony in just 10 frames, that is specific to Carniolans. I do know that Sue Cobey does great work, and so I would strongly advise anyone who is considering AŽ that one of the first things you're going to need to do is look at what bee species you're running.

If you're running, I can't speak for Russians because I have very little experience with them, but they are definitely more aggressive. Looking at, are you running  ligustica? Are you running Buckfast bees? Because the queen excluders are set up specifically for Carniolans, and the hives were designed for the Carniolan behavior, which is very small cluster in winter, and then explosive and swarm, highly swarm--

Jeff: Check that box. That's for sure.

Jonna: My goodness. In the spring. That's what you're doing with these hives. In this country, our pollen flow, our nectar flows look different, and so I think that the three-level hive is a much better system for that southern band of the United States, simply because you have to deal with swarming if you're running Carnies. It's difficult to manage that in Virginia or Texas, just because of the high heat and humidity. Up in the northern part where you are, you could have great success with a two-level hive. In fact, now that we have moved up to Rhode Island, I have some new hives that are prototypes that I've been working on with Dr. Božič which are going to go into use.

They're two-level hives. They have some unique characteristics. If they work out for me, we'll hopefully be seeing them here available for sale in the next couple of years. I'm the guinea pig. I think that the two-level hive in the north is fine. The pollen and nectar flows will support it, and it makes it easier for overwintering in a smaller colony. The other thing is that if you have a weaker colony, you can always put them in that top box, and then both colonies will benefit from each other's warmth. That's just one other unique thing you can do to an AŽ.

Becky: So beautiful.

Jeff: Fantastic. Jonna, I appreciate you taking your time today in this busy holiday season to come in and help us answer, or help answer Trevor's question. Would love to have you back maybe later in February/March to talk about the AŽ hive for those beekeepers looking for a summer project and something new to work with their bees. We'll just reinvest. We'll look at it again.

Jonna: Super. For those who might be interested, I'll just throw out that we're doing a tour in May. If you're interested to see the AŽ system in use in Slovenia, that's an opportunity as well. Come join me.

Jeff: That would be great.

Becky: I just saw that on your website. That looks excellent. What a great trip.

Jeff: Jonna, appreciate it. We'll have your contact information, your website information, the book, all of that will be on the website in the show notes. We look forward to having you back here later in the winter, early spring.

Jonna: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you about this. Thank you.

Becky: Thanks so much, Jonna.

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Jeff: That about wraps it up for this episode. Before we go, I want to encourage our listeners to rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download and stream the show. Even better, write a review and let other beekeepers looking for a new podcast know what you like. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the reviews along the top of any webpage.

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