Fall Management Tips with Jim Tew (354)

354 - Fall Management Tips with Jim Tew

[music]

Jeff Ott: Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast presented by Betterbee, your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment. I'm Jeff Ott.

Becky Masterman: I'm Becky Masterman.

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Jeff: Hey, a quick shout-out to Betterbee and all of our sponsors whose support allows us to bring you this podcast each week without resorting to a fee-based subscription. We don't want that, and we know you don't either. Be sure to check out all of our content on the website. There you can read up on all of our guests, read our blog on the various aspects and observations about beekeeping, search for, download, and listen to over 300 past episodes, read episode transcripts, leave comments and feedback on each episode, and check on podcast specials from our sponsors. You can find it all at www.beekeepingtoday.com.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. It's a little different today. Hey, Becky.

Becky: Hey, Jeff. Hey, who else is here? Oh, sorry, I'm just so excited.

[laughter]

Becky: You have a plan to introduce our special guest.

Jeff: Jim, why don't you introduce yourself?

Dr. Jim Tew: I want to give them a hint. Does anybody recognize this accent? These are three choices. I'm Jeff, I'm Becky, or I'm Jim. Hi, listeners, I'm Jim Tew from Honey Bee Obscura. I'm happy to be at the big table eating with the adults today.

Jeff: [laughs] Well, Jim, thanks for joining us. It's always a treat to have you join us and anytime we get to talk to you in person. I enjoy listening to your podcast. It is fun every time.

Becky: Yes, I'm still recovering from the last episode I heard where you were getting stung and chased. [laughs]

Jim: Oh yes, that was a true story. It's not like I was being attacked by 600 bees. It was like I had two really dedicated bees, and I was trying to keep making my verb tenses agree and making complete sentences and not swallow a bee at the same time.

Becky: You did mention that, "I think I need to move so I don't swallow a bee."

[laughter]

Jim: Oh, I don't know what's up with that.

Becky: Also, I really enjoyed you and Jeff talking, episode two. I love listening to your podcast when I'm in the bee yard. It's nice nice [crosstalk]

Jim: I don't know why you'd be doing that. You could be listening to a lot of good podcasts.

[laughter]

Jim: I'll send you some suggestions.

[laughter]

Jeff: He'll send you a playlist.

Becky: Oh, I love laughing. I love listening to you, Jim.

Jim: Wow. You're very kind for saying that. I wish the other listeners felt that way.

Jeff: Oh, absolutely. Hey, Jim, we'll have an opportunity to record something for Honey Bee Obscura when I'm in Ohio in October. That'll be fun.

Jim: Yep, that will be fun.

Becky: Hey, bring him to see those bees.

[laughter]

Jim: I got some bees I want to show you. You won't need protective gear or a smoker.

Becky: To the backyard bees.

Jim: I want to be the guy with the camera this time. Tell me what I'm doing wrong back there.

Jeff: It'd be just like Kim who says, "Well, come on over here and just tear off the roof of a hive and poke his head in there." Well, let me get the kids back first, Kim.

[laughter]

Jim: Oh, no, I wouldn't do that to you. I never get people stung on purpose. It's always traumatic.

Jeff: Jim, I'm glad you're here, well, for many reasons, but we started a promotion with a sponsor, HiveIQ, where we've asked our listeners to send in questions, and the question we read on the air, we will send that listener a HiveIQ tool that is co-branded with the Beekeeping Today Podcast logo. You're going to get to help us answer this one.

Jim: Do I get the tool?

Becky: Oh, that's a good question.

Jeff: Well, look at the time. Look at the time. We better get moving.

[laughter]

Becky: I want you to carry on one of those tools when you fly to Ohio and see if you can get it through TSA.

Jim: That way, you get to make new friends.

Jeff: We have a recording from Chad Kramer from Ohio. He might be a neighbor of yours. He didn't say where in Ohio he's from. He has a question about quilt boxes. Let me play it now, and then when we come back, we'll discuss it and see if we can come up with an answer for him.

[voice recording starts]

Chad Cramer: Hello, my name is Chad. I'm a beekeeper in Ohio. I currently have eight hives. I'm in my second year of beekeeping. I've listened to every episode of your podcast. I'm very interested in learning everything I possibly can. My question today is in reference to quilt boxes. With winter rapidly approaching, I'm fully aware of the various viewpoints on quilt boxes, and I've made a decision to use quilt boxes, so we can skip forward to that.

Assuming that a person is going to use quilt boxes, I'm wanting to question what should you put in your quilt box. Last year I used quilt boxes with a few inches of wood shavings and then a piece of 2-inch styrofoam on top of that. I've heard opinions about people using wood shavings, so that's still up in the air. I'm considering making a type of pillow by using burlap sack and filling it with wood shavings, which would help me contain the wood shavings and keep them from making a mess when I do get into the hives.

It would also allow me to use the wood shavings year after year assuming that they don't get wet or funky. Last year I did not have any trouble with any of the wood shavings getting wet or moldy, and they seem to be okay. I only had two hives to get through winter, so maybe this year will be different. Do you have any suggestions in reference to what you should put in a quilt box? Of course, if you were to use this question, I'm always interested in a hive tool. What beekeeper wouldn't be?

[voice recording ends]

Jeff: Thank you, Chad, for that great question. I'll just start out right away and say, Jim, Becky, either of you use quilt boxes in the past ever?

Jim: Becky, start with what's available from some of the supply people. I think you know more about that than I. What devices are available commercially?

Becky: That's a really good question. I know that you can buy a quilt box from a couple of different suppliers. I know Betterbee has a page that says this is how you make a quilt box from a medium super. Full disclosure, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. I've never used a quilt box before. [laughs] My contribution, I do know-

Jim: Nicely done. Nicely done.

Becky: - you can buy them and you can make them. I have a couple of questions about them once you start talking about it, but I know that there are a couple of different options out there depending upon how handy you are or how easy you want it to be.

Jim: I think one of the things that Chad wanted to know was what to fill it with, and essentially, the most common thing, I sound like some kind of quilt box authority, and I have used them twice in my life, so here I am giving an entire podcast with a high degree of expertise on those two experiences. I use wood shavings. In fact, I use two different kinds. Here's honesty, I used an old pillow slip because I read you're supposed to use slick fabric because otherwise, the bees' tarsal claws will become trapped in the course material, burlap or something like that.

I stuffed it full and then I packed it in, and I used it, and I put it above an excluder just to keep the bag from settling down. My mind's wandering because this whole quilt concept goes back a long, long way before we had these hives like we're using now. The whole concept of an inner cover had not been fully established, and so these older beekeepers would use these pillows or these cushions in the place of an inner cover, and that way, they could peel it back when they just use boards or slats. They got glued down so soundly that they chattered and cracked when they broke them apart.

One of the first times, and they were calling them cushions, they were used in the place of excluders, and so I don't know when, where, or how that someone said, "Well, could this thing be used to absorb moisture?" I also made one, and I just used an open box, and I filled it full of shavings, and then right in the center of it, I put a 4-inch PVC tube so I could look down inside the colony. It was in a super. My thought to that was I don't want to just put this thing on and cover it, so then I would cover that hole when I had it closed.

If I had to feed them, or if I had any reason for wanting to see into the wintering nest to see how high up they were, to let out more moisture, I would do all that. I'm rambling all over the place. Use wheat, straw. Use a wind-blown light sheaf. Don't use sawdust. I think we've all agreed that sawdust would permeate the bag and leak back down inside the hive. Use wood shavings. Some would say don't use black walnut shavings because of the juglone content, but I think that's just in general something that you wouldn't use around animals or bees.

Have I come anywhere close to answering part of this man's question, or do I keep struggling along here?

Becky: This has been super interesting. Now that I thought about it, I knew what one was, but maybe there are listeners out there who don't know what they are. Jeff, I'm looking for you. I bet you could do this.

Jeff: Well, yes. Actually, I had never used quilt boxes until I moved to Washington State and struggled getting the bees through the winter. Coming from Ohio and Colorado, I was used to that kind of winter beekeeping. Here, the winters are more wet than they are cold, so there's an incredible amount of moisture buildup in the colonies here that I was struggling with. Of course, slow to learn, I asked one of the local beekeepers, and they said, "Well, silly, use a quilt box." [laughs] "Oh, what's a quilt box?"

Basically, a medium or shallow box. Some of them have a little spacer underneath so that you don't have to use a shim. You can use it to also feed the fondant or a candy board. On top of that spacer, they tack down a piece of wiring, screening. I want to say it's number 8, but that's not right.

Becky: Number 8 is used to shake for varroa, I think.

Jeff: Yes, it's number 8, so the bees can't get up into it. Then, I originally put the shavings on top of that. Quickly learned that's not the way to go, because even then, the bees can chew on the bits of shavings that stick there and you get the sawdust down in top of the frames and makes a mess. Then, I started using old pillow cases. I'm pretty sure they were old.

[laughter]

Jeff: Then, I switched to just using old burlap. On top of the burlap, that's where I started putting the shavings. Last year, instead of using shavings, I used the thick foam building insulation, the blue foam.

Becky: The pink stuff?

Jeff: Yes.

Becky: Or the blue stuff?

Jeff: I'm using blue stuff.

Becky: [laughs] I just want to be technical-

Jeff: Construction foam.

Becky: - so people know.

Jeff: Yes, expanded polystyrene or something. That worked out really well last year, both in terms of insulating, and the burlap is thick enough that it absorbed most of the moisture. I didn't have any problems with wet colonies last year. I don't know whether it's the weather, my boxes, or just the stroke of luck. To Chad's question, I think that you just need to make sure it's really thick. If it's the entire box, make sure you put all of your shavings in there and push it down a little bit, and then put some more shavings in. You're not going to hurt them. I don't think it really matters what you put in it.

Becky: Is it used for more moisture absorption versus insulation, or both? If it's insulation, do we care what the R-factor is?

Jeff: I'm no expert on this, so I've never measured the R-factor of anything, but my thought was any excess moisture would be absorbed by the burlap, and insulation was to maintain a temperature within the colony that not maybe a condensing hive, but just avoid the evaporation out the top of the colony.

Becky: Heat loss.

Jeff: Yes, heat loss. Thank you.

Jim: It seems to me that there's not a standard design. We're trying to give specifics for something that's nonspecific. The R-value would depend if you used a deep super or a deep hive body and filled it full of sawdust, it's going to have a higher R-value up top. The walls are still going to be the same down around almost less than one. You might have good insulation up top, but it's still got coal penetrating from the sides. I'm not sure how much the R-value even matters so much as it holding the moisture.

Then, I got about 50 questions beyond that. Is it holding the moisture in the shavings or is it venting the moisture? Because I've gotten really insecure about this because there's some professional researchers now whose upper entrances are not really the best thing in the world for a wintering colony, that they need that water. Now I'm wondering, well, does the heat rise and does the warm air move to the sides, and does the condensing water run down the wall of the hive?

I just envision it just raining right back on the cluster. Maybe that doesn't happen because some of these authorities are concerned about the relative humidity of the brood nest and how much of that moisture-laden air we're evacuating, making my bees several years ago do some real weird things. They were out trying to get water when it was 37 degrees outside. It was basically a suicide run. I surmised, I just guessed that I was ventilating too much and I had my hives too dry, but I don't know why they were out there.

I'm rambling all over. I have used those boxes. They're not hard to put together. I don't know of a standard design. There's been some notion of these things all back down through history with different purposes. I would tell the listener to have a go at it, see how it works.

Jeff: I was going to say one of the good things of using wood shavings is that in the springtime, you have a decent supply of wood shavings for your smoker.

[laughter]

Becky: Unless they're all wet. That's why your smoker won't light, Jeff.

[laughter]

Jeff: Well, it keeps it really smoky.

[laughter]

Jim: It does. It smokes several houses down.

Jeff: It does eventually dry out. A lot of the quilt boxes have ventilation holes, either screened or open. I've often found stink bugs and beetles and other critters that go in and crawl underneath the wood shaving. It's a nice shelter for other insects.

Jim: The old guys really made a point about having that thing bee-tight. If you put it on and the bees can get by the quilt and get up above it, you're a bit tardy next spring, you may have a lot of wild burr comb above that cushion if they can get by. They really wanted you to make it bee-tight to keep the bees from getting around it.

Jeff: That's why I've been using the screen underneath. That's tacked into a rim piece that keeps the bees from underneath from getting up, and bees from the top down have not experienced that at all with the bees. Well, Chad, thank you for your question. I hope we answered it. The wood shavings seems to be the way to go. Make sure you separate them, like you said you were doing, from the wood shavings from your bees below, and you should be set.

If there's room underneath there to help feed the bees for fondant or your candy boards, that even helps out as well. Thanks, Chad. You'll be receiving a HiveIQ tool in the mail shortly. Becky, Jim, let's take this opportunity to take a quick break, hear from our sponsors, and we will be right back.

[music]

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[music]

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Becky: Welcome back, everybody. We're here to talk about getting ready for winter, and not our winter vacation plans, but how we're going to get our bees ready for winter because it's really go time for a lot of us. I guess my first thought is, what are your most pressing concerns?

Jim: Mine or Jeff's or the listeners' or yours?

[laughter]

Jeff: Is this a rhetorical you?

Jim: Yes. I'm worried about my retirement income. That's a pressing concern of mine.

Becky: Remember, I did preface it. We're talking about bees here.

Jim: Oh, okay. All right. Well, that really puts a damper on my questions then. Well, my pressing concern is primarily being certain that I've got food stores where they want. Even though I've told on the Honey BeeObscura I haven't opened my hives in a while, I do have to. Don't you know that right after I boldly said I was going to open my hives tomorrow, our 10-week drought ended, and it's been flooding rain every day. I feel like I'm responsible for that. Why didn't I do this two weeks ago? I do want to be certain that the food is positioned correctly.

Some of the podcast I've done with Anne Frey from Betterbee, she's a strong proponent of insulation, and interestingly, she says you can do that any time of the year. You don't have to do it at the beginning of winter because it's not all that cold then. Go out and put it on in January, February, March, whenever you're having your coldest months. I'd like to be sure they have plenty of food stores, and I'm going to arrange the summer openings that I've had and close those off. That's my first thing that I would like to do to my personal bees.

Jeff: As we've talked in other episodes, my fall starts when I take honey supers off and I do that first varroa treatment. I think we've handled varroa pretty clearly through other episodes. I don't want to dwell on varroa in this episode. The varroa should be underway, or I'm working on varroa, but after that is like Jim. I'm making sure they have the food stores available to get ready for the winter. Theoretically taken care of, making sure they'll have enough winter bees, and now making sure they have food. Insulation here is not as critical as, I don't want to say ventilation, but here it's so wet.

I hate saying that all the time, but it's so wet. I just want to make sure I don't trap moisture in the colony.

Becky: I mentioned in another episode that I try to make sure that they're fed well before they're going to start clustering, because once the daytime temperatures are 50 or below, depending upon the size of the colony, we've all seen those really big colonies that they don't care what the temperature is, because they're just creating so much heat. I have a few of those this year. I try to make sure that I'm not feeding up until that point, but I'm giving them some time to make sure that that food is reduced down and stored so that there aren't any big moisture problems, so I don't have any feed left in the hive.

I've got some frame feeders out there so that the moisture content is low enough, and haven't left them in the middle of putting away groceries and then they have to do something else like cluster. We had a listener ask how much time was needed. I was just floored with it depends is all over the answer to that question, because there are people who can feed liquid two-to-one heavy syrup well into the winter if not throughout the winter.

Then, in Minnesota, I want to give them at least a couple of weeks, but I try for three or four so that I've got them to winter weight well before those temperatures are going to start. Daytime temps dip below 50. Do either of you have any input on that question?

Jim: Some of the old beekeepers said if you fed too early, you might actually stimulate brood production a bit. I don't want to do that. I want this to be stored feed stuffs. I guess we can say the date right now. This is the ending of September, the beginning of October. By the 1st of November, I've got to be really serious. I said in that Honey Bee Obscura podcast to start today. If you're trying to feed or survival, start today, because I don't know how long it's going to take.

I want the bees to have a chance to get it in position and to cap it if they're going to, or leave it open if they're going to. Normally, when I'm feeding for survival, I'd like for them to have about three weeks, and everything's a variable. I think you said that. Some colonies take it right away. Other colonies never seem to figure it out. I go out and taste the syrup to be sure it's of high quality, and it seems good to me, so I don't know why some colonists don't take it. Give them time. I guess just be patient. You got to be so patient with all of this. So many unknowns.

Jeff: To your question, Becky, when the daytime temperatures barely get up into the 50s, 60s, then I stop with the liquid. There's a couple colonies this year I've already started just feeding fondant because I don't believe that they're strong enough to really process all that liquid.

Becky: Unfortunately, every beekeeping question is almost dependent upon how many frames of bees are we talking about? How many boxes of bees? It really depends, and those small colonies, if they're going to make it through any kind of winter, need special care, maybe more insulation, maybe the fondant, maybe bring them inside and put them in your basement. Jeff, is that a good idea?

Jeff: Not my basement.

Becky: Jim, what do you think about that? [laughs]

Jim: I love that idea. Make sure you make pictures. I want to see the birds' reaction.

[laughter]

Becky: No. Kidding about that one. There are considerations. If you don't have just a really robust colony where you've got 10 to 15 frames of bees, you might have to do something extra in order to get them through the winter and to get them fed if they're not heavy enough.

[music]

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Jeff: We're dancing around this subject, or we're getting close to it, so let me go ahead and ask it. It's the end of September, beginning of October, and when this episode releases, it'll be beginning of October. Let's say you have a couple, let's say two or three smaller colonies that are suspicious. Probably in your gut know that they won't make it through the winter if it's a bad winter. How do you go about deciding? This is what I struggle with at night or early in the mornings, really.

When you go to combine colonies, I'm not settled as a beekeeper which direction I go and how to choose which ones I'm going to try to save and which ones I'm going to say, Godspeed, because if you combine two really weak colonies, you're just going to have one larger dead colony [chuckles] in December. How do you make that decision? I still don't feel comfortable making that decision.

Becky: Do we have a time machine, because there's something that I do, but I do it in August, and it's called Frankenstein. What I do is I put together every colony that isn't quite right and I say, "Girls, you figure this out." It'll have more than three deep sometimes. Sometimes it's a combination. I'll go ahead and I'll put newspapers. Sometimes it's a queenless colony and a queenright colony and just a mixture of colonies. If they can figure it out, then I might have a single deep colony. I might have a two deep colony that I'm able to put into winter.

A lot of times my Frankenstein will make it, and I don't have any in my own yard right now, but it's a fun thing to do, but again, you need a time machine. I don't know. You might have one, because you're in a different place than I am, but what if you put them all together and ask them to figure it out?

Jeff: That's what I'm about to do.

Becky: Once they figure it out, you push them down into a single deep if they're not big enough to fill out those two deeps. You push them down, and then you can more effectively get them fed and populated for winter. Jim, you look like you have something to say.

Jim: No, I was completely agreeing with everything you're saying. It's just like Jeff said, everything's in the numbers. If those colonies are large enough, then you have maybe on the low side of something that would survive the winter. If you put three of them together, I got to quote Kim, somebody needs to quote Kim, I'm doing it for you, Kim, wherever you're listening, take your losses in the fall instead of cleaning it up next spring. If you think they're going to die, then why would you have that putrified, moldy mess next spring to deal with?

Put them together and maybe they'll get through. Of course, you're losing queens, but something was wrong with the queens anyway or they would've been bigger colonies, so always the queen's fault. Basically, Becky, I was supporting everything that you were saying on that.

Becky: I love wintering a single deep. I think that a single deep colony, it's easier to get to winter weight, and the population is obviously smaller, and they make it. They can make it through a Minnesota winter.

Jeff: How do you push them down into a different box?

Becky: Oh my gosh, I love talking about this. Once you combine all of them, then you need to make sure that any frame with brood is in that bottom deep. Basically, you set up that bottom deep so that it's as perfect as it can be, the best food stores you have for the edges, the best honey and pollen and brood. Then, you've got an inner rcover, and then you'll have boxes with bees. If they have brood on them, they're not going to leave them, but if they have food on them, often if you just set those boxes above the inner cover and give them a little time, they'll bring that food down into the actual--

You need the queen in that bottom deep too. That's super important. They will move that food and the bees down into the bottom deep, and so they'll all consolidate. Make their colony smaller, use an inner cover, make sure the queen's below, put the brood below, and then if they're not leaving the boxes, you can also put a shell and maybe even feed them because you're going to need to do that. I'll use a gravity feeder and then put those populated boxes without brood above the shell. Then, on our cooler nights, they just go down into the main new single deep colony. It's so much fun.

Jim: So much fun? I was just sitting here thinking, Jeff, you've got your work cut out for you. You should probably go ahead and let us finish this podcast. You need to get out to the yard.

[laughter]

Becky: The bees will do the work for you. You have to do a little bit of work, and find the queen, and make sure all the brood is together, keep the brood nest together, but then the bees will really do it for you, and they will self-organize. Again, you can prompt them if you can give them a little bit of space in between. We're not in a time of year where they're going to build any comb in that empty shell. Just make sure you guide them to where the nest is and they'll get there.

Jim: Becky, in that single deep that you're wintering in Minnesota, do you insulate it, or is it just a bee box sitting out in the cold?

Becky: I usually leave the lid off, Jim. I want tough bees.

Jim: Oh, okay.

[laughter]

Jeff: Oh, we're going to get letters on that, Becky.

Becky: I do. Lid is on. Lid is on. Moisture board is on. I really like a single bee cozy for those deeps, and that makes me feel good. I do not have an upper entrance in those. I do have a moisture board on top, but I use just the entrance reducer entrance.

Jeff: What's the difference between a moisture board and a quilt box, which we were talking about earlier?

Becky: That's such a good question. Well, since I don't really know what a quilt box is, a moisture board--

[laughter]

Jeff: Well, you should know after Jim's and my discussion about what a [crosstalk]--

Becky: I'm kidding. That was just fun. A moisture board is so much easier to store because it's just a-- it used to be the trade name built right, but it's the fiber board sheathing. I think that's the right word for it. The beauty, this is my favorite part of wintering bees, is that the moisture board, I'll start to put them on soon because when they start to cluster at night, they'll be producing the moisture, and then it wicks through the top. It goes right over the inner cover and it wicks through the top.

You'll find these little pools of water on the top of the moisture board, not the bottom of the moisture board. It wicks up the top. It's what I learned, and it's effective. When you pop that telescope and cover and you see the little droplets of water, you know they're alive.

Jeff: You put that on top of the inner cover above basically the porter escape hole?

Becky: Yes. Yes.

Jeff: I don't know if I've ever used one of those, a moisture board.

Becky: Is it a Minnesota thing? They sell it at beekeeping supply stores. I love a moisture board. Easy to store. They're a half inch or less. Easy to store. What we say in Minnesota is some of that moisture board should be visible through your wrap. If it's a cardboard wrap, if it's a cozy, all that, you should be able to see a little bit of it. It's one of those things. I don't know that that's 100% true. I haven't seen the data on that. When you pop the telescope and cover, you do see that in colonies that are alive, you see that moisture wicked right up through it. Just love a winter.

[laughter]

Jim: Well, I'm just thinking, I've got to go get out my quilt boxes if I can find them and refurbish. I've got two already made. I've got to buy moisture boards. It's not easy being a beekeeper, is it? There's a lot of work assignments here.

Becky: There's a lot of equipment. There's a lot of equipment and a lot of moving it in and out.

Jim: I have a lot of bee needs. Well, it all sounds like good information. Plus, I'm sitting in awe of you living through those spectacular Minnesota winters. Cold enough here, but I always say consolation, well, at least I'm not in Minnesota.

[laughter]

Becky: Well, I do live in a house with central heat, [laughs] so I'm not that tough. [laughs] It's all about the layers. It's all about the layers, and the central heating really helps.

[laughter]

Jeff: Jim, you were talking earlier about how you set up your bees with a top ventilation. Let's talk a little bit about that, because I essentially learned from you eons ago, it seems, and that's how I learned how to overwinter, was to have that top ventilation so the bees could basically-- the moisture didn't-- the theory being, could escape. Plus, it'd be a top entrance for the bees in our snow drifts. Is that what you still do? Is that what you were talking about?

Jim: Well, it's what I'm still going to do. That's what I've always done. I was admitting to you that from a natural bee nest standpoint, they would want some of that moisture up in the colony. Then, it gets really confusing because in the natural nest, if it's a punk wood log hive kind of thing in a tree, then that would absorb that moisture, and then the next spring, if the bees needed relative humidity again, there's all that soggy, punky wood there, and so it would re-evaporate. There was this natural ecosystem that doesn't really seem to turn up all that well in the hive.

I'm comfortable saying it's going to be a lot of water. It's been about three gallons of water for 50 pounds of honey that comes out. It's a lot of water over the winter period that the bees have to get rid of, and they do want some of that humidity. What I've always done in the past was crack the inner cover and then [chuckles] selectively pick up quarter-inch twigs from the ground and then prop each corner of the inner cover up with a quarter-inch upper entrance, put the outer cover back on, put a strategic bee rock right in the middle of the lid, and then there's an upper entrance across under the inner cover that would evacuate the air.

Becky: This is what we do in Minnesota.

Jim: Is that a wine cork?

Becky: It's a cork.

Jim: It's a cork?

Becky: Yes. We just drill auger holes in our colonies and then cork and uncork them. [laughs]

Jeff: I've drilled a lot of auger holes in my colonies and use corks to fill them too.

Jim: Oh, so you're talking about the auger hole. Above or below the hand hole?

Becky: Right at the hand hold because I like to live dangerously. [laughs]

Jim: Sometimes put it right in there.

Becky: No, it's below.

Jeff: Right where your fingers go, Jim. [laughs]

Becky: Right. [laughs]

Jim: Now, I hadn't even thought about that. I used to do that. We didn't use the corks, but we drilled the holes there. Did they have to be centered? When you were telling that, I was reliving. I thought, why can't you just put it over on the far third? Close enough. Why have you got to put it right in the middle of the box where your hands go when you're trying to pick it up to move it?

Becky: Well, it should be below the panel, but I have seen boxes where it is off to the side. I think that the reason I would want it centered is because if it's off center and maybe the population shifts a little bit, that's right where the honey is going to be. There's a better chance that you're right where the cluster is if it's centered, if the bees are following the rules, when it matters.

Jeff: I always drilled mine right below the hand hold. Then later, instead of using corks, you get those dials. Those were always real easy to-- one would be wide open, one would be screened open if you needed to close them up and move them, or the robbing situation. I tend not to drill any holes these days.

Becky: I'm all about drilling holes and cork or duct tape. I own some of those dials. They're just not installed. Maybe next year.

Jim: I need some dials. I don't have any dials. I forgot to have dials now too.

Becky: They're very reasonable, and they make you look like you know what you're doing. You can control ventilation, or easily if you're going to move a box.

Jeff: I think I might have a couple laying around, Jimo. I'll bring them with me to Ohio.

Jim: I need them. I didn't know I was so deficient. Send them to me.

Jeff: [laughs] Well, what else are we doing for our bees this fall? Early on, we made sure that they were equalized, that the Varroa were taken care of. In September, we made sure they were being fed and we combined any weak colonies. What else can we do to make sure that they're going to be prepped for winter?

Jim: I want to make a statement that may provoke both of you, but the queen I've got right now, short of combining that colony with another, is the queen that I'm going through winter with. I'm just done with requeening and introducing and whatever. Either I live with the queen I've got or maybe I'll combine some of the weaker colonies to see if I can make a little bit better colony, and they can figure out which queen they want. Are you two still interested in ordering queens, requeening, replacing? It's late in the season, but [crosstalk]--

Becky: I'm done looking at my brood nest, actually. They're in go mode. They're propolizing everything, and they just don't want me in there. I know that I've been controlling Varroa, so I know I'm good there. I know what it looks like when you're most likely queenright, and just looking at your seams of bees, looking at how they're behaving, the population. I think it's riskier for me to pull anything out because then I probably have to combine something if something should happen. I really wouldn't be able to detect it because the brood nest is shrinking.

Once they shut down, it's harder to tell if you're queenright. I'm with you, Jim. I'm done. Whoever they have in there, they're going through the winter, and if they don't have anybody, they're in trouble.

Jim: Well, I've said on some of the other podcasts I do at the Honey Bee Obscura that they've been feisty testy. Would I do anything about defensive bees now? No, I wouldn't. I would just not bother them and hope that the people who are cutting grass and the neighbors won't go be back there anywhere near that, because I'm not going to try to go in and select those queens. What is it that's triggering them? What is the cue that makes them come for me when they wouldn't come for me just three weeks ago? Is it my attitude?

[laughter]

Jeff: You're opening yourself up for so many replies there, Jim.

Becky: I would like to defend Jim here.

Jim: [inaudible 00:41:25] [crosstalk] people, they're going to tell me like it is.

Becky: My thought is, did a skunk show up, or could they be hungry? What's going on with the bees? Has anything bothered them?

Jim: Well, it was that hard dearth I told you. We had a real drought. Plants died, and there were fire hazards put out and announcements for open fire. I assume that all that golden rod wasn't producing, and they were testy. I don't know what makes them testy in their little supraesophageal ganglion. What do they look at and say, "Okay, if he comes in the yard today, I'm going to try to kill him." I don't know, is it nectar coming in? Is it the statistics of a lot of bees back in the hive and the foragers aren't out?

Becky: I would think that you have got all these unemployed foragers who maybe picked up a side gig as a guard bee.

Jim: Punching Jim.

Becky: [laughs]

Jim: It's not on the cusp of robbing. One of the things I would hope to do is to be in and out quickly when I do my few bee things before they have a chance to choose the ones that they're willing to sacrifice to eat each other when they start late-season robbing.

Jeff: What's the yellow jacket pressure like?

Jim: It's been so dry that it's not horrible for me.

Becky: Whenever I leave the bee yard, I always have a few bees and a few yellow jackets. Actually, I had a few spiders too with me last time, so it's a full car. [chuckles] We've got yellow jackets here, but my bees are fighting them off.

Jim: I've got them, but there were not many Japanese beetles this year. I have an off year for them. I don't know why, just their fluctuation. I want my bees to have a decent queen, and I want them to have plenty of food. I'd like to put wind breaks up, I probably won't. I'd like for them to have some red exposure, but what they get is what they get.

Jeff: What kind of wind breaks would you put up if you were to put them up?

Jim: I put up a fence. Part of that fence included trees, and a storm several years ago took all the trees out. I should complete my stockade fence around the yard and then put them against the fence. I don't know how the snow field would form then. If it snowed, I'll bury the colonies on the other side of the fence or what. It's breezy back there. It's on the top of a knoll, and it's breezy back there.

Jeff: I have a somewhat similar situation that in this new bee yard where I've been all year, it's exposed to the Southwest, which for the most part, is good, but it does get direct wind a lot. I'm a little concerned about this winter, and I'm thinking about putting up some-- We don't get hardly any snow here, but just as a wind break, putting up some snow fencing maybe strategically just to break up the direct blast of wind. A wind break is always valuable in the wintertime.

Jim: There's honestly not much I can do. They've been working since last spring to get ready for the big dearth, and it's almost within sight now. If you keep varroa populations down and keep other diseases off and have queenright colonies, I don't know what else to do.

Becky: I'm at the point now where once I'm done feeding, then I want it to get cold, and I want to wait to do any kind of a wrap because I just want them to conserve that food. It's okay for them to get cold and get in that conservation mode.

Jim: If something goes horribly wrong during the winter, I'll try to feed dry sugar or whatever if I've done something wrong or if the bees did something wrong. Really, this is the window right now to do something while you can, because any windows that remain are much smaller throughout the winter season.

Becky: Are you putting fondant on regardless, both of you?

Jim: I'm not. I've actually got it. I was thinking I should add that to my list-

Becky: [laughs]

Jim: - once I get the dial for the front of the collar. Once I get the quilt board boxes out, once I get my moisture boards, I'm going to go ahead and put some fondant on too.

[laughter]

Jeff: Becky, I think I know what I'll be helping Jim with when I'm visiting in October.

Becky: Oh, boy. Wait, you're going to build a fence, first of all.

Jeff: [laughs]

Jim: Well, I got to build a fence.

Becky: Jeff, are you good at fence building?

Jim: Yes.

Jeff: Oh, I guess so. [laughs]

Becky: He is?

Jim: Yes.

Becky: Okay. Fantastic.

Jim: Yes, just nod, Jeff.

Becky: Fantastic.

Jeff: I can dig a post hole like no one else.

Becky: I love this. We're going to call this episode Jeff's to-do list when he visits Jim.

[laughter]

Jim: 35 ways to help a senior citizen beekeeper.

Becky: Oh, I love it. I love it.

Jeff: Well, in a wrap, is there any closing messages we can leave our listeners on fall management tips?

Becky: Like a winter wrap? Is that what you're saying?

Jeff: Yes.

[laughter]

Jeff: Foil, foam. What kind of wrap?

Becky: Oh, hopefully, that varroa problem is taken care of. I hope that all the listeners know that what really gets these bees this time of year is varroa. It's really late to make a huge impact with it, but if they lose their bees between now and next year, hopefully they check for signs of varroa and then come up with a new plan. I hate to do the varroa thing, but it's just so important for wintering bees.

Jeff: It all comes back to varroa.

Becky: It does.

Jim: Well, I've already said my piece. I've got the queens I've got. I guess it's like riding a roller coaster. I'm at the top of the first hill, and we're about to start this winter ride, and whatever happens, you've just got to ride it through. Do the best you can and give it your best guesses.

Jeff: I think I'm going to just continue forward and combine a couple colonies and look forward to the springtime, like all good beekeepers. Not to mention, and I want to end with this, since we have Jim with us, is in January [crosstalk]--

Becky: Oh, this is exciting.

Jeff: Yes. In January, we all will be together in Louisville at the North American Honeybee Expo. That will be fun.

Becky: So much fun.

Jim: I hope so.

Becky: Wait, what do you mean you hope so? It's going to be fun, Jim.

Jim: It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun.

Becky: We are going to have nonstop fun.

Jim: I'm like moving a full refrigerator. It's going to be an ordeal to get me there, but it'll be fun once I'm there.

Becky: I would just like to end this way. So many people came up to our booth last year and asked for you that Jeff and I felt a little jealous. Anyway, people are excited [crosstalk]--

Jim: I know you're not telling the truth, but I really like [crosstalk]--

Becky: Oh, 100%.

Jeff: Oh, no, absolutely.

Becky: "Where's Jim? Love Jim. Where's Jim? Love Jim." Jeff and I were like, "We're here." [laughs]

Jeff: "We're here," jumping up and down.

Jim: I can be Jim if you want me to.

[laughter]

Jim: Well, for all those people who said that, if they did say that, thank you for saying it. I'm looking forward to trying to be there, or being there.

[music]

Jeff: We will all three be there. North American Honeybee Expo in January. Thanks, Jim, for joining us today on the fall tips.

Jim: I had a good time. I had a good time. Thank you.

Jeff: Thanks, Becky.

Becky: Yes, this was fun. So nice to see both of you.

Jeff: [chuckles] That about wraps it up for this episode of Beekeeping Today. Before we go, be sure to follow us and leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you stream the show. Even better, write a quick review to help other beekeepers discover what you enjoy. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the Reviews tab on the top of any page.

We want to thank Betterbee, our presenting sponsor, for their ongoing support of the podcast. We also appreciate our longtime sponsors, Global Patties, Strong Microbials, Bee Smart Designs, and Northern Bee Books for their support in bringing you each week's episode. Most importantly, thank you for listening and spending time with us. If you have any questions or feedback, just head over to our website and drop us a note. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks again, everybody.

[00:49:51] [END OF AUDIO]