Dr. Jeff Pettis and Carlos Perea: New Varroa Treatment (291)

291 - Dr. Jeff Pettis and Carlos Perea: New Varroa Treatment

Jim Davis: Hello, this is Jim Davis.

Kathy Davis: I'm Kathy Davis.

Jim: We're members of East Central Iowa Beekeepers, providing education, resources, and support in promoting interest in the fascinating field of beekeeping. Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast.

[music]

Jeff Ott: Welcome to Beekeeping Today Podcast presented by Betterbee, your source for beekeeping news, information, and entertainment. I'm Jeff Ott.

Becky Masterman: I'm Becky Masterman.

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Jeff Ott: Hey, a quick shout-out to all of our sponsors whose support allows us to bring you this podcast each week without resorting to a fee-based subscription. We don't want that and we know you don't either. Be sure to check out all of our content on the website. There, you can read up on all of our guests, read our blog on the various aspects and observations about beekeeping, search for download, and listen to over 250 past episodes, read episode transcripts, leave comments and feedback on each episode, and check on podcast specials from our sponsors. You can find it all at www.beekeepingtodaypodcast.com.

Hey, thanks a lot, Jim and Kathy Davis there in Iowa. There we go, another state in our bingo card of colored in states of listeners.

Becky: I love it. I was in Iowa talking to beekeepers earlier in the summer. I've been there a few times. Boy, they've got a strong beekeeping program, as you can tell by that opening.

Jeff Ott: My brother used to live up in northwestern Iowa.

Becky: Oh, it's a beautiful, beautiful state.

Jeff Ott: Yes, it is. It is. Becky, it's August. What are you doing to bees now? I've pulled all the honey supers off and I'm thinking about winter bees.

Becky: Always good to think about winter bees because that's what your colony is growing in there. They're cooking up those winter bees and those bees are going to live for 200-plus days. We always try to get another mite treatment in, in August, but we also have a nice late summer nectar flow from the goldenrod and asters. The bees know that the nectar is turning off quickly and so talk about having to protect your colonies from robbing. It's a bittersweet time.

Jeff Ott: It is. Fall robbing is a big problem. We don't have or I don't have, in this location, a fall flow like I experienced in Ohio or Colorado with the goldenrod and aster and all those fall flowers. After July, things dry up and it's dry until the following May. It's a difficult time when beekeepers have to feed here and robbing is an issue. You have to make sure the colony is all closed up, which is a difficult time because in this location August is also probably the hottest month. You're trying to keep time closed up and keep the robbers out while feeding them and it can become just drudgery.

Becky: I like to keep some sheets and a bucket of water in case there's a robbing incident and I can just cover up the hives and just get them to stop. I don't know what you do to get them to stop robbing, but best to get them not to start robbing, I think.

Jeff Ott: Yes, fortunately, I've not had to deal with a mass robbing experience like that. I know Jim has talked about that at length. I hope to keep that as one of those things I hear other people talk about and I can sit there fat dumb and happy and say I don't know what you're talking about.

Becky: That is a good place to be-

[laughter]

Becky: It's a good place to be because I start protecting the girls against robbing well before I have to because once it happens to you, you just don't want them turning on each other, right? That's exactly what they do. [laughs]

Jeff Ott: You stand out there in the middle of the bee yard, "Can't we just all get along?"

Becky: Get along.

[laughter]

Becky: We worked so hard.

Jeff Ott: Yes, we've worked so hard to see them-- Don't destroy it now. Becky, I'm really looking forward to talking to our guests today, Dr. Jeff Pettis and Carlos Perea.

Becky: It is really going to be a great conversation, I think. They're talking about something that every beekeeper should care about.

Jeff Ott: I hope that they talk about, is something of all interest, especially those of us beekeepers dealing with varroa, which means everybody.

Becky: All of us. All of us.

Jeff Ott: We'll be talking with them right after we have this quick word from our sponsors.

[music]

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Jeff Ott: While you're at the Strong Microbial site make sure you click on and subscribe to The Hive, the regular newsletter full of interesting beekeeping facts and product updates. Hey, everybody, welcome back. Sitting across this big virtual Beekeeping Today Podcast table are Dr. Jeff Pettis and Carlos Perea. Guys, welcome to the show.

Jeff Pettis: Good to be with you.

Carlos Perea: Thank you.

Becky: Welcome Jeff and Carlos. Thanks so much for spending the afternoon with us.

Jeff Ott: Jeff and Carlos, we've invited you here to talk to us about the exciting events that have at Terra Vera and the discoveries and the potential benefits for beekeepers worldwide. It's really exciting. I look forward to getting to it. Before we get to that, I want to just touch on who you guys are and your backgrounds. Jeff, we've had you on before talking about Apimondia and the work that you've done there, today, Terra Vera. For our listeners who may not know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Jeff Pettis: Jeff Pettis, I'm a research scientist in one way. I worked for over 20 years with USDA as a research scientist, mostly on honey bee health in Beltsville, Maryland. I've been a beekeeper over 40 years as well. Then currently I'm the president of Apimondia, which is the International Federation of Beekeepers' Association. Every two years we hold a large meeting all around the globe. I'm wearing quite a few different hats, and I'm also consulting with Terra Vera on exciting products.

Carlos: My name's Carlos Perea. I'm the CEO and founder of Terra Vera. We're a technology company that focuses on making agriculture more sustainable. Now, of course, we have a product or a development that we think might help beekeepers. Prior to that, I'd been an entrepreneur in the technology space, really focused on using technology to help social and environmental issues. My previous company was in water treatment. I got that company scaled into multiple countries and sold it. Then prior to that I was in the high-tech world of Silicon Valley.

Jeff Ott: Fantastic and before we started recording you and I were talking, and you're also an avid cyclist, but because this is a beekeeping podcast, we'll keep it to that and save the cycling for another time. [laughs]

Carlos: I'll have you on my show when we talk about cycling.

Jeff Ott: Oh, fantastic. I'll be there.

[laughter]

Jeff Ott: Jeff, for our listeners who may not know you, tell us a little bit about yourself. We did have Dr. Jay Evans from the USDA Beltsville lab on our last episode. This is a USDA month, I think.

Jeff Pettis: I was born in Georgia and grew up in Georgia, and I can turn on that Southern accent if you like, but it's slowing the program down.

[laughter]

Jeff Pettis: I went to University of Georgia and Texas A&M and then I did a postdoc with Mark Winston in Simon Fraser University in Canada. Then joined the USDA in Beltsville, Maryland as a research scientist. Worked there for a number of years, was research leader for a time, worked through the CCD which was a fun thing, occupied a lot of time just with the media and stuff. Almost all my research has been on bee health, bacterial diseases, AFB, American Foulbrood. I've done a lot recently on queen health, effects of temperature, and sperm viability. Done quite a bit on registering new miticides with amitraz, oxalic, and formic acid, so a wide variety of things.

Currently, I have two research grants where I'm working on tropilaelaps mites, and we probably won't have time to talk about that, but I'm working on the exotic tropilaelaps mites in Korea. Still involved in research. I'm based in Salisbury, Maryland, small town, about two hours outside of Washington D.C., and I manage about 100 hives. My family, we sell at local markets, so I get-- Anyway, it keeps me busy.

Jeff Ott: Take all the important events and things going on with bees and beekeepers, and if you were to lay them all out at the intersection of a mall, you'd be right there.

Jeff Pettis: I'm in the middle of quite a few things, I guess. Yes.

Jeff Ott: Amazing. I'll take you up on your offer for coming back at some point, talking about tropilaelaps and all these other issues that are facing us.

Becky: You have a really varied background and your current pursuits. How does that interact with how you're leading Apimondia? Are you research-focused or are you beekeeper-centric?

Jeff Pettis: I hope that some of the scientists are listening to this because as Apimondia supposed to be the interface between scientists and beekeepers, and we're really some meeting for beekeepers, but I feel that at least half the scientists can't communicate at all. I mean, not at all, but--

Becky: Half? Do you have data to support that, Jeff?

[laughter]

Jeff Pettis: If I get to research, it'd be higher than 50%. I'm being generous.

Becky: You're being generous.

Jeff Pettis: It's not that they can't communicate, it's that they can't communicate at the level. They always speak like they're speaking to other scientists. As Apimondia president, I'm trying to get the people who will present there to think about talking to their grandparents. It's not to dumb down. Not that beekeepers are dumb, it's just you have to explain science in more realistic terms and not-- You have to tell people why your research is relevant. That's one of the goals I've got in Apimondia. The other is we're using bees around the globe in different parts of the world, especially in developing world as a way to bring people out of poverty and protect the environment. Those are the things that I'm trying to do as president, and yet I'm still doing some science and stuff. Yes, it's fun. It keeps me active.

Jeff Ott: The last time you were on the show, I think you were in Europe somewhere, but you had just gotten off a long call. It seems like you're well better rested now than the last time we talked, so they definitely are keeping you busy in that role.

Jeff Pettis: Well, I didn't want to say anything, but I'm only a day and a half back from Tanzania. I was in Tanzania because we're going to host a Congress there in 2027. It keeps me busy and keeps me traveling a bit too much, I should say.

Becky: I'm excited about what we're going to talk about today, but I do think we need to have you back because there's a lot else going on with you.

Jeff Pettis: I'd be glad, too, at some point.

Jeff Ott: Carlos, why don't you tell us about Terra Vera, why you started, or why you joined them in the mission, and then we'll get into talking about what Dr. Jeff Pettis and you are doing?

Carlos: The origin of the technology really goes back to the Department of Defense and Department of Energy many, many years ago, were looking for ways to control viruses and bacteria for drinking water predominantly for naval and military applications. They had some breakthroughs with the technology called electrolytic chemistry, and they were able to take salts, break them down into oxidants that can be used to replace chlorine and other chemistries in water. I acquired that company, grew it and scaled it. We had a number of customers in a number of countries.

That would've been the end of the story except my partner, the Chief Technology Officer, Justin Sanchez, stayed with the company, and years later had a breakthrough with the technology that was really not appropriate to water, but much more for agriculture. He learned that by using certain salt and amino acids in combination, he could emulate or copy what nature does in mammalian immune systems and create some chemistries that were very benign to human tissue and plant tissue, but very effective against molds, mildews, and other pathogens that can destroy or damage crop value.

In the beginning when we formed Terra Vera, and if you haven't made the connection or don't have Latin languages, Terra Vera roughly translates into beautiful or true earth, we started the company really with the mindset of replacing the chemicals that we use so often in ag that are not pollinator-friendly or not environmentally-friendly. That was the purpose of Terra Vera out of the gate, was really to replace these toxic chemistries with things that are more benign environmentally, but yet very effective for the farmer or the cultivator to allow them to make more money. The way we position the company is we want to be as safe and sustainable as organic solutions, but as effective as the synthetic chemistries. It was really a happy accident several years into this process that got us in the beekeeping world. I can elaborate on that later.

Jeff Ott: We'll leave it a suspenseful point right now because this is a great opportunity to take a quick break and we'll be right back and then we'll get into the details.

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Becky: Welcome back everybody. Carlos, I got the thumbs up from everybody. We don't have to wait. Could you share that breakthrough that connected your company to honeybees please?

Carlos: We've started the company just prior to the pandemic, I guess four years now. We were happily acquiring customers that were using our chemistry to treat plants for diseases, things like powdery mildew, Botrytis, Aspergillus, things that can affect a lot of different plants. We were having very good success and one of our customers came back to us and said, "Hey, you didn't tell us that this was effective against mites." We didn't believe them at first. The nature of the chemistry is it's very benign. You don't need to wear protective gear or equipment around it. If you sprayed it on a plant, you'd see it kill some of these diseases real-time, visually, but at the same time, if you got it in your eye or in your face would cause no irritation.

It sounds too good to be true, but it's really a natural system. Nature developed this chemistry over eons. We produce it in our bodies naturally. It's been studied for medical applications. What we figured out how to do is use technology to replicate this process. Again, we're having this success in agriculture and that's really why we started the company. Customers started telling us, "Hey, it's doing a really good job with russet mites and spider mites and some aphids. It led us to go do more testing in that area. It was quite a surprise to us that it would be effective, but the mode of operation or action, if you will, is this an oxidant and oxidant stripped away electrons. Apparently, some of these soft body pests, including the varroa mite, are susceptible to it.

When we started doing these field trials on varroa, it was really a happy coincidence of events as well. I had run into an old friend at a high school reunion, who was an avid beekeeper, and she found out that we could kill mites. Lo-and-behold, I had no idea what a varroa mite was two years ago, but we soon did testing. As Jeff Pettis was saying earlier, I have a granddaughter who was learning about honeybees and telling me about varroa mites. It was like the world was speaking to me that I needed to go find out what varroa mites were and understand if we could actually help them.

Jeff Ott: I'd love to have heard that reunion story. Carlos, what do you do?

Carlos: Oh, I kill mites.

Jeff Ott: Ooh, tell me more. [laughs]

Carlos: It wasn't quite like that, but yes, that's really good.

Jeff Ott: Oh, okay.

Carlos: You got the gist of it. She's an avid beekeeper, name is Chauncey. Chauncey is one of the beekeepers who has done a lot of trials in the field. Jeff met her as well. She actually has been involved with honeybees for a lot of reasons, but partly because she's a big believer in bee venom therapy and she's had a lot of success with that. When she found out about this it was like-- She pulled me from this reunion, literally by the hand, and said, "Hey, come see my hives and tell me what you can do." It was a very, very strong pull into the market.

When we started to talk with folks, even before I met Dr. Pettis, and I was talking to beekeepers, I was just amazed at how challenging it could be. It's such a wonderful hobby or business for some folks, and yet the challenges of varroa and other issues are real. They're very difficult. It was just a very warm welcome. Everybody we told once we had research, said, "Please do more research and see if this is something you can help with."

Jeff Ott: This sounds too good to be true, is it, Jeff?

[laughter]

Jeff Pettis: I can tell you, well, Carlos contacted me after he had been at the, I think, the American Beekeeping Federation meeting in New Orleans, wondering if I would be interested in at least talking to them about a new technology that they had. Yes, it sounded too good to be true, but in talking with Carlos and with Justin about it's a weak oxidant, it works in this way, completely safe, and then knowing, just because I'm also a half botanist, knowing how it would work on powdery mildew, and things like that, and then the evidence on spider mites, it's like, "We should give this a try on varroa." They already had some evidence that it could kill varroa.

Now, taking that, the big step is to make it effective and easy for beekeepers to use. We know it will kill varroa. The question is, can we kill it consistently and in the hive and make it easy for a beekeeper? Yes, I'm consulting. I'm very excited about the possibilities.

Becky: Usually, these things take a lot of time. Jeff, you've done this with a few other pester miticides. What's your best estimate at this point?

Jeff Pettis: We started some initial talk with EPA about how they would view the product, that's one thing, to get a license. There's also another way you could go, which is to not make a mite control claim. Yet that's what the people were seeing in the greenhouses. They were controlling powdery mildew, and yet they were controlling spider mites at the same time. We would like to get a license for varroa control because it's huge, obviously.

There's a huge step, as you know, Becky, from the lab to the field, and the colony is very complicated. That's where we're at. We're looking at different modes of application and timing the application, things like that. We have to have that worked out before we can actually do a trial that EPA will recognize but for efficacy. We're moving, but I don't want to give a timeline. The technology, at this point, I wouldn't want to say, but I'm very engaged. I know the beekeepers, we need it. It's something that is safe and effective.

Becky: One of my favorite parts of formic is just the lack of residual in the comb. Do you have any idea? Have you started any residual test yet, or does that still need to be done?

Jeff Pettis: There would be no residual. In fact, there's a positive part of the residual. We believe that the bees can use some of the material that's left behind, some of the amino acids, and actually for food. Not that they can get much of it, but in In the cleaning process, what's left behind would be positive rather than anything. There would be no residue issues.

Becky: Meaning that no residue, plus you'd be able to apply it when honey supers are on. That's your theory right now.

Jeff Pettis: That's the theory right now, yes. Yes, yes.

Jeff Ott: What about the efficacy under the capping?

Jeff Pettis: That's probably a no. That is just not-- Whereas formic, if you get the concentration just right, it will penetrate the capping. So far, we don't believe it would penetrate the capping. That would mean multiple applications. At least that's where we're at right now. Might be something different, but at this time, we don't think it would penetrate the capping.

Becky: If originally this was being used for maybe pathogens or a fungi, is it possible that it could be used for mites? Then some of your other effects, it's going to be having a positive impact on the level of pathogens in the hive? Are you going to look at that?

Jeff Pettis: [laughs]

Becky: I'm very excited about this. [laughs]

Jeff Pettis: No, no, no, good question. Actually, when I first started talking to Carlos and Justin, I'm like, "We'll just use it right now as a sterilent in the hive. We'll fumigate, use bee equipment." We did a little pilot. It does knock down some of the bacteria and fungi. I don't have any evidence on American foulbrood right now. We have a spore-forming, but in general, it does act, I could see it acting on Nosema spores and feces or something. It could have these other add-on effects. Because it acts like a weak bleach, so if we're fumigating in the hive, it could certainly reduce the bacterial and fungal load in the hive. We talked about chalkbrood.

Jeff Ott: [laughs] When can I get some?

Carlos: Are you ready?

Becky: How many more tests?

Carlos: We're doing more field trials more and more. The equipment, and Jeff said this earlier, is one of the issues. One of the things we knew right away was that we were effective on the mites. We have plenty of data now, and we have video, and we have mite counts, and all kinds of data that support that we're killing the mites pretty quickly, pretty efficiently. There's good efficacy. I think there's an increasing amount of evidence, and Jeff could talk to it about not harming the bees. Even at brood, earlier stage, we're getting good data that shows we're not harming the bees.

What we're starting to see, as we do more of this test that we seem to be helping the bees. As Jeff said, we know we're leaving behind some amino acids that are known to help with foraging and bee cognition, if you will. The trick all along, and Jeff said this in the beginning, he said, "Look, the issue is not going to be this chemistry work? The issue is going to be, can you get it or you want it easily, cost-effectively, et cetera?" That's where we're at, is we're in that phase of doing these prototype systems and trying to make sure that we can treat a hive in a couple of minutes and do it very quickly, very efficiently. It's not just for the hobbyist. It's for the commercial beekeeper that might have hundreds and hundreds of hives. Then we want to make it really simple and really cost-effective as well.

We are starting to do-- I think at this point, we've probably treated more than 200 or 300 hives, somewhere in that range.

Jeff Pettis: What's the mode of application? Is this a vaporization?

Carlos: Yes, it's a fogging. We do this with our chemistry in agriculture applications and indoor greenhouses and controlled environment ag with fog, our chemistry. As a contact chemistry, the more you can get it in every nook and cranny or every place that you want it, the more effective it is. What we're doing in beehives is we've changed the nature of how we're fogging. It's just a low-pressure system. It does a really good job of getting the right particle size and getting the right flow in throughout the whole hive. Like I said, the process now requires equipment that's a little bit cumbersome, maybe, a little bit heavier and bigger. Once we get that nailed, simplifying it and miniaturizing it, and cost-reducing it, that's pretty straightforward. We've done that a lot, Justin and I. I guess really Justin.

Jeff Ott: It's you and Justin, but Justin is the whizz-kid on the--

Carlos: I do provide the motivation. My partner, we go back many, many years. He worked for me at Intel, and then I sent him off to some little MIT school to get a master's, and he ended up getting a couple of master's degrees. He's been doing more work, and they have had some really good success, Jeff, with mixing the carbohydrates of the sugars in the fog. It seems to calm the bees. I don't know if there's a grooming or another effect that's happening, but we're getting really good results. Even within one application of just overall colony health. Again, Chauncey and Justin could talk to you about it, but they're pretty ecstatic over the hives they treated last week, and I think they've been looking at them this week.

Jeff Pettis: Cold fogging as opposed to the hot fogging of vaporization of oxalic acid.

Carlos: Exactly. A key difference is you don't have the same temperature imitations, you don't have the same PPE or protective equipment considerations. It's really a benign chemistry.

Becky: If it impacts soft-bodied insects or mites, a high enough dose would have to impact bees.

Carlos: It's an interesting observation. I guess the notion that we have is all the evidence so far shows no. Now, why is that? I think it has to do with the nature of the outer layer of the mite versus a bee, et cetera, because chemistry is going to break down very quickly. Again, if we go back to the origin, origin of the chemistry, the very first chemistry we developed, and all the chemistry we have since are variations of this, your body produces naturally. For whatever reason, these oxidants at these levels are not very reactive with human tissue. The bees fall someplace in between. Jeff would have a better answer, I guess, from an entomologist standpoint, but we've not seen any-- The concentrations we're using are pretty low concentrations. We're talking a couple of thousand parts per million.

Jeff Pettis: Becky, more to your question. I did some pilot, but recently good pilot work on adult bees and larval posed different ages of the larvae in the comb, and I didn't see any effect. It will probably need to be repeated for EPA, but we did some fogging directly in the comb and trying to create a little bit of a worst-case scenario. I did not see-- The brood survived. I looked at it seven days later and it had endured. They weren't pulling the brood out, open brood after treatment, so that was encouraging.

With adult bee test, I didn't see any problems with-- I got them actually fairly wet, and then they were in a cage bee trial. The only time we had a problem was when we add a little wetting agent. Then the wetting agent made the material go further on the body of the bees. We're going to continue to make sure that we're safe for bees, but at this time, I was concerned about adult bee, especially in larval toxicity, and I don't see a big issue there, but we'll wait until we get the final application, and then we'll repeat those adult and the larval toxicity tests.

Becky: With what you're saying, it almost sounds like it would be that day one, day two, early-stage larvae that would be maybe more.

Jeff Ott: Or even eggs.

Jeff Pettis: Oh, eggs. Yes, it could be eggs.

Becky: Could be susceptible. Did you--

Jeff Pettis: I didn't. It was mostly first to third in star or fourth in star. I didn't focus, I didn't do eggs alone, so there was some eggs in there, but I didn't do that. I was doing 100 squares. In general, there was over 90% survival of the brood in the area, which was comparable to my control.

Becky: We know that formic, obviously, can negatively impact the brood, so it's not necessarily a game changer, but it's just-- I think that beekeepers are going to want to understand how does it impact the mite that doesn't impact the brood or the adults? If it's dose-dependent or concentration, then it's easier to understand.

Jeff Ott: If you said this totally eliminates small hive beetle, then you'd probably just corner the market on- you cure the world of the beekeeping ills.

Jeff Pettis: [laughs] No, it probably it won't control wax quality, it won't control small hive beetle. Back, we talked about it earlier, as a general oxidant, light oxidant, some of the-- Like what the bees are doing with propolis to help in that realm is far as just reducing bacterial load and fungal load in the colony, we're pretty sure about that.

Becky: Are you only testing on specific hive configurations at this point? Because I would think that if you're looking at a one or two-deep brood nest versus one or two-deeps plus seven supers, you might have a different impact of your trials.

Jeff Pettis: Yes, we're not-- Right now, it's just we do singles and doubles, but--

Becky: Singles and doubles. Okay.

Jeff Pettis: Singles and doubles with no supers on. Just because it is a fumigant and you want it-- Yes. That would be probably the recommendation, even though we think it's completely safe. It's in the early spring or into the fall, but not with super zone because there's just too much dilution effect, but we're not there yet. We're not there quite there yet.

Becky: I'm just getting ready for when you are. [laughs]

Jeff Pettis: Okay.

Jeff Ott: She's starting to size down all of her colonies .

Becky: I don't know if everybody can tell, but mite treatment is one of my very favorite things ever. [laughs] I just love being able to control them.

Jeff Pettis: Are you still in Minnesota?

Becky: I am in Minnesota, yes. I worked for Katie Lee a little bit in the extension program, but I retired from my bee squad job.

Jeff Pettis: Carlos is in New Mexico, and they we're keeping, singles, or often singles, maybe some doubles occasionally. I keep a lot of my bees in singles in Maryland. In Minnesota, you have two and three brood boxes, 24 supers. They have these crops. I mean, not really, but they have huge colonies in the Great Lakes area. The bees just build up these really large populations. There's a lot of different beekeeping styles. Yes.

Jeff Ott: You mentioned early on, Jeff, about your future work with tropilaelaps. Have you considered testing this against the tropilaelaps? I'm sure you have. Can you talk about it?

Jeff Pettis: I'll let Carlos talk about that because, yes, we have that opportunity, and I think we already have some information. Yes. Carlos, you want to touch on that or is it too early?

Carlos: We got permission, I think, to mention, as long as there's no endorsement or relationship, but Dr. Ramsey is somebody we also approached, and he has a lot of interest in work going on, and he has one of our small systems that is not optimized for this application, that he was able to take out in the field, and get some very promising results. We have that data and some video evidence of that, but the chemistry looks to be effective against the tropi mite even faster than the varroa, and that's not surprising, but I think, again, the same issue will be, at what stage, and how many treatments, et cetera. In terms of just the chemistry and the mite, it looks very promising.

Jeff Ott: That's excellent news. I know because the tropilaelaps, everyone struggles with varroa today, and even small hive beetle, but tropilaelaps is the boogeyman in the closet that keeps everybody up at night. If this is on in the works, and it's effective against the tropilaelaps, then it's going to be a great game changer.

Carlos: Well, we hope so. Again, the whole idea is to give beekeepers just better tools, and same thing when we started the company, to give cultivators better tools. When people use our chemistry for crops, they're often replacing two or three or four other treatments with something that's simple. That is one of the benefits of an oxidant. It's non-discriminant in its nature. It does have a lot of limitations. Historically, the big limitation has been too reactive. When Jeff says, bleach, peroxides, or ozone, or any of these other oxidants, the problem isn't that they're not effective. The problem is they're too effective, and they create these other issues, whether it be corrosivity or toxicity or byproducts.

That was really the breakthrough that we had, was by combining them with these amino acids, and again, emulating, or bio-mimicking what nature does with mammals' immune systems, it became a game changer for us. This very low oxidation-reduction potential chemistries, there's a lot of potential for them with not only other soft bodied pests and other plant disease, but probably other applications as well that we haven't even envisioned. Again, the cool thing about it is we didn't invent the chemistry. We're copying nature and using technology to emulate that. Evolution has figured out some really neat things for us, including chemistries that are effective and safe.

Again, we started the conversation with it sounds too good to be true, and that is always the biggest issue. Dr. Pettis has been pretty humble about it now, but in the beginning he was like, "Who are you and why should I care?" Well, he's a little bit more polite than that. I think there was a show me factor, and now he's had a chance to observe it himself and treat his own hives. That's really what we want to do, is we want to make it so accessible that folks can try it out.

Jeff Pettis: I'll jump in just quickly because I read Terra Vera's page about why they're doing what they're doing for agriculture. It was a very positive message. It was a very positive message about replacing synthetic chemicals. That got me excited. Then in talking more and more about the possibilities, it seemed like something that I knew the big step is from lab to field, and I thought I could help in that regard. That's the reason I got excited.

Jeff Ott: Have you come up with some sort of product that beekeepers can watch for on the horizon?

Carlos: We're in the process of doing a bake-off process for names, and we're going to run some by Jeff here in the next couple of days. We wanted to get the input of beekeepers in the process, right? We love doing the collaborative aspect. Our big thing is we've got technologists on the company, and we've got a lot of business folks and acumen. Justin and I, like I said, scaled the company in water treatment, that we have thousands of communities around the US, and many thousands around the world using them for drinking water, other applications as well.

Getting back to this notion of a name and what people should watch out for. You are going to see us more on social media, you'll see us more on the website, you'll see us more starting to promote it, but the idea really is to not just splash it into the market, it's really to, along the way, involve beekeepers, both hobbyists, sideliner and commercial folks as well, and get their inputs, right? Is it simple enough? Is it straightforward enough? What about the name? How do folks feel about it? You probably won't see us with some of the traditional names. That's one thing that we're-- We don't want to just have a another me too app or something but, we'll see. It's a fun part of the process and everybody gets involved here, even the technologists. It's funny, all these engineers, all of a sudden, fancy themselves as marketing experts.

[laughter]

Carlos: It's like when the road cycle is trying to go mountain biking or vice versa.

Becky: Oh, no, we're not talking about biking.

Jeff Ott: Have you seen a new group of-- Oh no, I'm sorry.

Becky: I want to take us back because I can hear beekeepers yelling, saying, "Varroa mites aren't soft-bodied. They're hard little buggers." [laughs] I think what you're referring to, Carlos, is that they're ventral sides. Jeff, you probably are really ready to answer that question. [laughs]

Jeff Pettis: Well, no, certainly they're not-- I mean, to use the entomology, the sclerotize, they're fairly heavy sclerotized compared to tropilaelaps. Tropilaelaps is much lighter. The cuticle is much lighter, but in all the testing we've done, the product seems to work, and attack, and kill, actually, very quickly, as long as we can get it on the mite itself. The key is getting it on the mite and coating it and they die. The trick is to-- You've got mite, some were embedded in the abdomen, only a little bit of them are showing. There's all those issues that, that's where that last step of being effective comes in. That's what this idea that maybe we'll create more grooming and things like that, even with the application, it might help in the exposure process.

Becky: It could also be desiccation of just even the dorsal side. It could be just the desiccation of the cuticle. They would dehydrate basically. [chuckles]

Jeff Pettis: Well, it's funny, they actually look like they jellify more-- We started to see that with aphids and some others, but when they stop moving under the scope-- I don't know, Jeff, you could probably describe it better because you see these tests more than I do.

Jeff Pettis: The legs come in and they become immobile and they die in a very short time. Actually, you see, it's just like, guess what? With formic acid and oxalic acid, we don't know exactly the mode. We just know that it's enough of an irritant that it kills varroa without killing bees. With both of those, oxalic and formic-- You know with formic, we're getting some larval toxicity and stuff.

Becky: Right. Thank you. I just wanted to clear that up because I know that what you're seeing is effective from your trials, but I just want to make sure that I gave you the chance to answer that for the beekeepers who are questioning it.

Jeff Pettis: Varroa look like little tanks. They're heavily armed, for sure.

Jeff Ott: Carlos, this is probably a question for you, and it's going to be a difficult one. As a beekeeper, I'd need to know what are you targeting as cost per colony for treatment? Is this going to break the bank, or is this going to be--

Carlos: No. How much would you pay to have a healthier colony? I don't know.

[laughter]

Jeff Ott: If I have two colonies in the back, that's one thing but if I have 1,000 colonies, that's going to have to scale.

Carlos: I think a couple of things. We know the technology scales very cost-effectively with volume. Getting it very cost-competitive with the existing products and solutions, not just the chemistry and the treatment, but the labor, that we have a high, high confidence in. What we're really trying to do is break through and give somebody who's got only a couple of hives something that's very cost-effective and time-efficient as well.

Of course, there'll be trade-offs, but we think we can get there. My notion of this is it can be cost-competitive with what the alternatives are and yet be more effective, safer, giving more benefit. That's really the idea. I learned a long time ago, if you want people to change, give them something that's twice as good at half the cost. That's usually what we aim for. Terra Vera is something that's much better than the alternatives, but also much more cost-effective. That's when we see people change behaviors. It's not one that's 5% better or 10% better. People are stubborn. They're more stubborn than bees, for sure.

Jeff Ott: [chuckles] I've never heard of a stubborn beekeeper, so this is really--

Becky: That's a whole new episode.

[laughter]

Jeff Ott: We'll have to explore that on a new episode, Becky. Is there anything we haven't covered that you're ready to talk about now? Are you going to make us ask you back in several months and give us an update?

Carlos: For one, I would love to come back just as we get progress and have milestones or reach some level of availability or access for folks. In the moment, we're really trying to get a lot more field trials done. We've been really warmly received by the community here in New Mexico. We've had a lot of beekeepers reach out to us, unsolicited, once they learn what we're doing and work with Dr. Pettis. We're at that stage now we're getting more of these field trials and, as Jeff said, really figuring out how do we navigate all those little nuances. Can we use it when it's really hot outside? Can we use it when you have multiple stacks? Those kinds of things, that's where we're at right now.

Jeff Pettis: I think just in talking with Justin and thinking about the different types of beekeeping out there, we envision a smaller unit that might be used by a hobby beekeeper and a different unit that might be used by a commercial person that's a little more industrial, a little easier, just a heavier unit if you're treating lots and lots of hives.

Jeff Ott: We will invite you back to talk about new developments. Jeff we'll definitely invite you back to talk about tropilaelaps, Apimondia, anything else you want to talk about?

Jeff Pettis: Sounds good.

Jeff Ott: It's been great having you on today.

Carlos: The pleasure's been mine or ours, I guess.

[laughter]

Becky: Thanks to both of you.

Jeff Pettis: That's been good. It's been very good. Again, because I'm reaching across the globe now-- Even across the globe, beekeeping is a small community. Everybody, they tend to work together. There's some competition. I think, hopefully, this product we can help the industry and help beekeepers keep healthier hives. That's the goal.

Jeff Ott: I don't know what to say, Becky. That really does sound too good to be true. I hope that they are successful and within a year or two, we have a solution to, or another tool to put in our tool belt against varroa.

Becky: Right. Remember Dr. Erika Plettner and her tool that should be coming around, hopefully, soon and is being investigated. You add this one to it. Both of them are not something that is going to maybe impact the colony as much as a synthetic miticide. I say that very slowly because we don't know on both of them yet, but they have that potential if there's low residue for this one. It's pretty exciting that people are working on it and people coming from other industries saw that opening as far as the mite issue and they have something that is effective in the field against mites potentially on plants. I'll take it.

Jeff Ott: To get down the road and get further away from the hard chemicals, which no beekeeper enjoys using, is fabulous news. Like you said, to have these smart people who are taking technologies developed for other industries or maybe related industries in agriculture and bringing it to solve a problem with honeybees, that's fantastic. I'm glad that Jeff Pettis is working with them. He has that experience and background in testing and how the government flows and works. I think this is one of those promising developments that we can look forward to.

[music]

Becky: It's still early stages, but the story is great and hopefully it continues to get better and better.

Jeff Ott: That about wraps it up for this episode. Before we go, I want to encourage our listeners to follow us and rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts wherever you download and stream the show. Even better, write a review and let other beekeepers looking for a new podcast know what you like. You can get there directly from our website by clicking on the reviews along the top of any web page.

We want to thank our regular episode sponsors, Betterbee, Global Patties, Strong Microbials, and Northern Bee Books for their generous support. Finally, and most importantly, we want to thank you, the Beekeeping Today Podcast listener for joining us on this show. Feel free to leave us questions and comments at the leave a comment section under each episode on the website. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks a lot, everybody.

[00:47:15] [END OF AUDIO]